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I couldn’t have more fun on a podcast if I tried.

Take a listen while Christian Bradley West & I talk about spirituality, purpose, relationships and more and how you can implement some of the practical wisdom he shares on the podcast!

Connect with Christian @ https://www.thecountryclairvoyant.com/

On Insta @ thecountryclairvoyant and let him know you found him as a guest on Spiritual Dope.

Brandon Handley 0:00
321 Hey, there’s spiritual dope, and thanks for joining me today I have with me, Christian Bradley West, the country clairvoyant. Um, first of all, I just loved the name. Right. And I think that that’s one of the reasons why we connected um, you know, obviously he’s a clairvoyant in the spirituality space artists, textile artists,

Unknown Speaker 0:28
author

Brandon Handley 0:30
podcaster and Instagram influencer. So, you know, a couple of things that you write in here, right is a, you know, dedicated to facilitate and clear vision with within others, so that they are no longer wandering in the wilderness asking the question is, how did I get here? What am I doing? What is my purpose? Who am I? And you know, you’re like, Hey, I’ll spare you all the brain science focuses on patterns and behaviors. And I’ll let you know, until you I know exactly how you got to where you are patterns and behaviors, right? And then, you know, you kind of say, Hey, I’m more like a spirit guide and a meat suit. Right. So this is a spirit guide me suit. What more do you need to know? Right? You know what, and so thanks for being here today. Appreciate it.

Christian Bradley West 1:19
Thank you. Thank you. And I have to say, I’m one of many. You are here, as well. We’re all booty. Buddhists. They were all Buddhists. Right? We’re all we’re all gods. So we’re all bad in some fashion. Some of us just, I’ve picked up the the staff, I suppose the staff are found in the wilderness and decided to go forward with Sure. Sure. No, I love that. Right.

Brandon Handley 1:41
I think that i think that that’s another part where the word awareness kind of gets tossed in and out, right, like, everybody is

Unknown Speaker 1:49
Buddha.

Brandon Handley 1:50
Right? Yeah. But it’s like whether or not you decide to be aware of it or not acknowledgement even. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, so what I like to start these off with is, you know, source speaks through us, right. And certain conditions and what this microphone is, right, is an amplifier. Right? Yeah. So, sources speaking through you today to specific people that listen to this podcast. What’s it saying? What’s the message that you’re here to deliver today?

Christian Bradley West 2:23
Ah, wow, he put me on the spot. Let’s see what’s coming through. Okay. So one thing that’s been coming through just recently is there’s there’s a lot Okay, let’s go here. There’s a lot of conspiracy theories out there. There’s a lot of there’s a lot of information, right. We live in the information age, there’s a lot of it, right. And there’s any number of different facets. There’s the truth, there’s the lies, there’s all those different things. And of course, people could say, oh, truth is relative, so forth, all that we get into all that talk, but we won’t right now. But we could say all of that. So. But what I will point to is that none of that matters. And you’re like, well, Krishna, of course, it matters. This information, we need this information to live to survive, what is it? What are you What is it? Why does it matter? And I say that because what only matters is the individual, you taking care of you. So there’s could be all that shit swirling around in the world. And it is not directly impacting you on a day to day basis. If it is not speaking to your own practice of awareness, then then really the focus I want now I feel like in my message period is I want people to focus on their own individual awareness, their own individual growth, and their own choices, because that is what drives the collective right. That’s what drives all of the other things. Because each of us is a piece of the whole and whole as a piece. Right. So, so, so that’s been showing up a lot in talks with friends, family, other people. And and I always want to point back to the consciousness of the individual. And yes, there are many things going on. But if we don’t have the facts and figures, then we probably want to just redirect our focus to what is true within us, and how we can participate with that. And instead of worrying about what’s going on in the rest of the world, although to be conscious of it is completely okay. And and to some degree necessary. Not not ignoring any of it, but also realizing what we can do in our daily life in order to contribute without getting caught up in all theories and conspiracies and all of those things.

Brandon Handley 4:49
Yeah, I love it. Yeah, there’s a there’s a lot of conspiracy theory shit out there right now. It’s just like yeah, it’s it’s like 2020 is a perfect storm for Yeah,

Christian Bradley West 5:01
movements around into cue non movement, there’s, there are literally, it feels like we’re living in a, in a, in a an apocalyptic novel, you know like science fiction it really feels that way to me sometimes it’s a little scary and entertaining at the same

Brandon Handley 5:19
time. I know that when it hit right I know I heard you said like you were all packed up and ready to go, right? You’re like, Hey, I did I did my supply shopping. But

Unknown Speaker 5:27
yeah,

Brandon Handley 5:28
when when we started seeing reports, my wife and I started seeing reports of like, you know, shipping rationed at the grocery store. I was like, Alright, we got to go online, we got to order, like we’re hitting up like restaurants, stores in order and stuff. And mind you, like we would have only lived like maybe six or seven days longer than anybody else. Right, but but we have the toilet

Unknown Speaker 5:51
paper.

Brandon Handley 5:53
But it seems like, you know, very apocalyptic. And at the same time, it’s, I think that I think it’s kind of great, because this is like that, that break that the world kind of needed, right? The disruption, like, you know, hey, everybody’s been asking for disruption. Like, we need to disrupt this that the other thing and yeah, you just got disrupted like massively. So you got what you asked for?

Christian Bradley West 6:19
Yeah, right. We were building to it. I mean, technology has been remarkably, art and science has been disruptive, throughout all of human history. And in the 20th century, of course, it essentially came to a certain head and in and it’s still doing, especially technology. Now, it is the primary disrupter. So and now we have, as you just mentioned, the these other impinging. Yeah, and what do we what do we do with it? How do we how do we essentially take the wildfire and use it to benefit? Well, I mean, I

Brandon Handley 6:59
love how you hit on that, you know, let’s, uh, you know, that talks a little bit. So like, I think your outcome is optimizing. Right? Yeah. And let’s talk about that a little bit. But um, let’s give people a little bit of backstory, right. concha clairvoyant. How did he come into existence?

Christian Bradley West 7:17
Well, and this is one incarnation, I’ll say, I don’t know if I will stay here, but it’s one of the titles I always joke. I’m like, Khaleesi, Mother of Dragons, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It’s like I have 1000 titles in this life already. And, and I’m at the end of it, it’s just I am just Christian by the West. But how that came to be, was I oddly enough, without meaning to I had had this dream about being Native American. And then a week later, I found out that I actually had that in my bloodline through my father. And but what also happened is I did a soul retrieval because I grew up on power, the power 10 Nation property in Virginia, which is course related to Pocahontas. I literally live just miles down from Pocahontas State Park. So I grew up on that land. And, um, and had a lot of weird circumstances I always was had, I guess you could say psychic, aware, medium. And so what I did is I came back actually that week, without knowing having the dream I was coming back to Virginia from Georgia, with a dear dear friend who’s also an astrologer psychic, medium person. And he tuned in and he’s like, Oh, yeah, you died on that property. And we went through the whole thing. And so I went back there. And then on the drive back to Atlanta, I had the country live with me, which actually was an idea six months before, but I thought it was a distraction. I was like, oh, whatever, it’s much bullshit. And then like, but the voice was in my head, like, you have to do this. And here’s the interesting thing is that if I would not have started it about two and a half years ago, I would not know what I would be doing to make a living now, I don’t know what I would be doing. Because my books that I had then had been rejected, like, nothing was coming through like, this was the thing. And I’d started account previous, that took me six months to maybe get 1000 followers, and in the first month with this account with the Instagram account, for those that are listening, I had almost 4000 followers. So Beginner’s luck, essentially. And I was like, Okay, I guess this is what I’m doing now. And then it was like, okay, just start doing readings, which I had always done for friends and family, but then it was like, Okay, do this now. And I was like, Oh, shit. So,

Brandon Handley 9:29
so intuition. Intuition was saying,

Christian Bradley West 9:32
Yeah, there’s no Yeah, yeah. Just I, I jokingly say, people could easily probably call me schizophrenia. I’m not, but that they’re like, Oh, you hear voices? And I’m like, absolutely.

Brandon Handley 9:44
We kind of hit on that though, too. Right. Like, I mean, could I listen, my grandmother was schizophrenia, you know, but I went there for the diagnosis. But you know, could it have been? You know, intuition, could it have bad mediumship Couldn’t have been one or any of all these other things. Absolute just improperly received.

Christian Bradley West 10:06
Yeah. And I absolutely think that I sometimes I think there’s a direct line of mental illness with this work. Um, I’ve struggled with it periodically. Because I think when you’re, when you’re walking the margins of society in any way, shape or form, in your thought process, you definitely feel like an outsider. And if you’re getting information, and it’s coming in a quote, unquote, weird way, or odd way, it can definitely be that way. But we not only hear the positive, we hear potentially the negative as well. And sometimes you can get very consumed in those negative voices. And as we know, the collective is full of those voices going back to conspiracy theories and so forth. For so it’s hard to discern. So I think sometimes the mental illness gets augmented as bad or negative, because no one is there to cultivate the listening and how to discern between what’s coming through.

Brandon Handley 11:01
Right, right. And being able to, you know, tune in or tune out, right.

Christian Bradley West 11:08
Exactly. Filter weather, what radio station, yeah, what radio station and my tuning into, sometimes that dial is just all over the place, especially for people who are empathic, and I’m like, okay, the point is to learn what station you want to turn into and where they’re different stations. And that takes a tremendous amount of practice, and self awareness.

Brandon Handley 11:28
Yeah. So so you know, you’re headed back to Georgia, you decide the country clairvoyant, you spin up the Instagram account. You’ve got 4000 followers in a month, and people are probably like, how did you do that? But you basically just spun it up, and you were being your authentic self?

Christian Bradley West 11:46
Yeah, I decided that with his account, I was just gonna throw everything at the wall and see what stuck. Like, I just was like, This is who I am. I feel like I’ve had to learn and modify things within this space, not modify it in a negative sense, but but essentially almost like carving out a sculpture. There’s like, Okay, this, this works, this doesn’t work. And how and really what it is, is same with my writing is how do I refine how I use my voice? What am I saying? What do I want to say? Where do I want to direct this and become more strategic in my awareness of my own message? And it’s, it’s slowly evolving, I decided this will be just a meme account right now. Because I like that a lot of people go in, they change it like, Hey, this is a meme account. And now it’s gonna be a personal account. I don’t know. I kind of like it being little.

Brandon Handley 12:36
Right, right. Right. Yeah. No. So I mean, it is a meme. And it’s entertaining. Right. Lots of entertainment on there. And, you know, I think that, you know, from, from my perspective, and where I’m coming from, I was looking for kind of spiritual accounts that weren’t your everyday spiritual accounts. Yeah. I mean, look, there’s a lot of them out there.

Unknown Speaker 12:57
Yeah. And, and they’re great.

Brandon Handley 12:59
They’re great. But like, there’s, you know, spirituality isn’t all, you know, like, the beads. It’s not all like that, that that stupid dress that every hippie has. Yeah. And yeah, and all that. Right. Yeah. And that’s why I started following some of what you’re putting out there. Right. Yeah. Because I enjoyed it. It’s authentic. It’s real. And it Yeah, it is spiritual. The stuff that you’re saying is like, it’s legit, right? I know, because I got a book of what’s legit and what’s not behind me.

Christian Bradley West 13:33
Call your intuition. Right. Like, it’s

Brandon Handley 13:39
like, yeah, look, it’s you know, I try not to be like an elitist. But sometimes, like, You got it, you got to know where to cut the shit, right? Like, you know, this is like, you can tell some, some things apart from others. And that’s just it.

Christian Bradley West 13:52
It’s about the editing and the curating. And to me, I like to be very practical, to me, spirituality is simply rewiring the brain for more awareness, more openness to to the, to the perceived unknown anyway. And, and, and not getting so stuck in the mire of what have been right and thinking we know already. And we call it spirituality and the you know, if you look back at Hinduism, the Vedas, if you look all the way back to some of the very early spiritual texts, they all talk about, essentially changing your perspective and which which rewires the brain and the more you practice the different perspectives or the different thoughts, or it could be taken even further to live and no thought and allow things to arise from that. Then your life changes, your brain chemistry changes, your body chemistry changes, everything changes, and of course, the way that they taught me Kriya Yoga, the way you accelerate that practice is through your breath work, which is a Kriya Yoga, very separate from hatha because hot is great but Kriya Really is my favorite, because it really displaces it’s a disrupter, that breathwork is a disrupter. And literally, the thoughts, it forces the thoughts to stop. And then you just see them floating up there. And you’re like, Okay, and kind of like a tree you can pluck when you want, you know,

Brandon Handley 15:18
I love that. I love that. So I mean, I love the idea of no thought, Would you say that’s similar to surrender?

Christian Bradley West 15:28
Gosh, yes, I can definitely be an aspect of that. Because the mind very much so wants to assume and judge and categorize and label and detail and, and do all those things, which is a great tool. Again, though, it’s a tool. So either we’re using a hammer and the hammer is using us. So yeah, at some point in time, to essentially surrender the need to be thinking all the time, they need to be figuring out like, last night, I had this emotional state come over me where I was very angry. And I was like, let’s figure this out. And then I thought for a second, I was like, No, Christian, you can’t think your way through this. Let’s breathe our way through this. Let’s accept it to your point. Let’s surrender. Not to the circumstance, but let’s surrender to the awareness of the circumstance.

Brandon Handley 16:18
Right, right now, hundred percent hundred percent. Yeah. You know, in a situation where you’re angry, you know, you’re restricting the possibilities, right? Because you’ve got like this pinpoint, you know, thing or like, Scott, I have in this way, God dammit.

Christian Bradley West 16:35
Right. Or it didn’t happen that way. So God damn right.

Brandon Handley 16:38
Right. Right. Right. So like, like I had, I had, like, you know, the whole universe, and it’s got a it’s got land on this time. And if it doesn’t, I’m pissed as hell. And you’re not open or open to what are all these other possibilities? Right. And yeah, just literally kind of letting that flow through you.

Christian Bradley West 16:56
Yeah, absolutely. It’s good way to put it. Absolutely.

Brandon Handley 17:00
Well, you know, look, I mean, we’re, we are energy, energy currents, right, like, and just this body, the meatsuit. Right. Yeah. And the mind acts as a dam for that stuff, right? We’re like, well, like, I guess I’m just gonna have to stop it. It’s all gonna stay right here. And this is like, yeah, honey type flow. And you they again, you’re just restricted to this, like tiny space. Otherwise, you know, we’ve got the rest of the we’ve got the rest of the universe to work with. And we’re not even trying.

Christian Bradley West 17:27
No, well, and there’s something so there’s two things, the shamans, shamans are often called the hollow bones, right. So they’re the vessel that folds the spirit, whatever you want to say. And then, and then you also have, the way you’re talking about to me and an astrology thing is very Saturn nine way of looking at things from two different sides, which is, there’s a great book that I loved when I was young artists called the power of limits, and it talks about pie and proportion. And and how this this number definitely had a structure to it. But the structure was potentially infinite in its incarnations. And I always love that because to me, it’s like, yes, we’re in the meatsuit. But what how do we maximize the potential of this meatsuit? And and through adversity through potentially, which could be potentially very much so be suffering and certain challenges in life, we begin to recognize what we’re capable of beyond our conditioning beyond the domestication beyond the agreements, we were handed as children. And go Wait, But wait, there’s more. Right? But But how do we do that while maintaining an open space? I jokingly say we’re all walking vaginas for spirit.

Brandon Handley 18:45
Because the receive,

Christian Bradley West 18:46
right, right, because sometimes, we’re definitely there’s a structure to us. But there’s definitely something else and what people don’t realize the spirit isn’t outside. We are spirit, hopefully. Yeah. Yeah. So so it’s like when we surrender, we’re not surrendering to something as much as we are, which is the way it looks to people. What we’re ultimately doing is we’re just allowing for our authentic nature without all the voices without allies without their old, old, old the past to get in the way of how we want to be now.

Brandon Handley 19:19
So how did you stumble on that for yourself? Ask me that again. How did I what I’ll just stumble on that for yourself. You know,

Christian Bradley West 19:26
was it was it something I yeah, so when I started very young, I always was I was always drawn to this stuff, which again, astrological look at my chart, it’s like, oh, yeah, you are spiritual as fuck and, and it’s true. I always was. I was always interested in all these weird things like the angels fairies and fantasy dragons, so forth, whatever. And then when I was when I was when I was 14, I started to realize I was gay. And that was very difficult because I was this devote Christian set. Baptist and had chosen that through actually my grandparents who were my archetype of unconditional love in my life. So I was like, of course, like, they’re showing me the way, so I’m going to do the church thing. Sure. And then the other aspect to it was that created so much stress, we all actually moved to Atlanta, at 16. So middle of high school, so I had to leave all my friends. And I developed Crohn’s disease as a child. So those two things kind of coming together. Like a

Brandon Handley 20:32
hydron Collider, right? Yes,

Christian Bradley West 20:33
it was. So those they end also dealing with parental abuse, as well as, as a child and as a teenager, mental, emotional, and physical, became all of those things created such intense suffering for me that I just essentially, that was my initial collapse. And at that point, time, if you want to call them angels, or whatever, showed up, I didn’t know who they were. But I was having these dreams with these beings and these feelings that I was having. And, and so a door open then and then I met started meeting through doing herbs and essential oils and my healing and things like that, because I got off the steroids. I was just done with the anti inflammatories they had me on went completely to herbs. So in those shops, I started to meet people that was like, Oh, I want to I want to get to know these people. What’s going on here? So yeah, so that was the beginning of it all.

Brandon Handley 21:31
So it’s a whole nother space. And so, you know, it’s funny, because you mentioned you’re gay. And and also, you know, you’re doing this clairvoyance. And you’re in the south.

Unknown Speaker 21:45
Yeah.

Christian Bradley West 21:47
Hence the country clairvoyant.

Brandon Handley 21:49
Right. Right. So so for, you know, for for people tuning in, you know, if you’re not from the south, and if you haven’t ventured to the south, I hate to say it, you know, there’s a lot of parts in the south that really haven’t changed in the past 30 to 40 years. So for you to be in the position that you’re in doing what you’re doing, I’d say that’s brave, right, you know, in one sense of the word. But in the other side of that, there must have been, you know, this kind of fear stacked on fear. And I think I talked about it before, like, you know, what happens we like, not only are you gay, you’ve already you’re in the south, but now you’re like, I’m gonna be doing tarot readings. And, boy, and I’m psychic, who wants to hang out? Right? All right. So let’s talk about stepping into that space and what that was like for you.

Christian Bradley West 22:40
So to your point, very much so that I, for anyone that doesn’t know and the ones that listen in probably don’t, um, I come from a fear space and everywhere, so that you may say, like, you walk the path of love or fear, whatever the conscious or unconscious, I always come from the fear. And what I also realize I do is I do everything anyway. So if I feel very compelled and inspired to seek something out or to participate in some way, then I will do it, and nothing will stop me. Nothing. I will, I will go, Okay, this is what I’m doing now. And it’s interesting, because I haven’t dealt even being gay, I haven’t dealt with outside of high school, there hasn’t been any prejudice in my life. There’s never I’ve never stumbled. I also have dated very country, alpha boys a lot, they have tend to find me. And I have I was country boy, myself. So um, you know, inside, there’s, there’s one of those inside of me. So, um, so you know, it’s true. And so I’ve kind of, it’s odd how it’s all worked out. It’s, it’s, it’s strange, I really, I always say, I’m 50% country, 50% city. And so I just I go wherever I’m called. And I find those people, whether they’re in the country, or in the cut, you know, one way to say it, or, or if or if they’re actually, you know, in more urban areas, it’s funny, I feel very binary in that way that I kind of flow between the two. And the fear. Of course, in the beginning, it’s always the, you know, the strongest in the beginning, but I’ve just, I keep pushing past that. And when I started to do this, the fear was, oh my god, I’m gonna be in front of people talking and talking about my my philosophies, my, my own perspectives, and that felt very vulnerable, so that I’ve had to work through that a lot, as well. So have you found it to be empowering,

Brandon Handley 24:45
kind of facing those fears and and stepping into them?

Christian Bradley West 24:48
Absolutely. My perception is it’s always empowering for us because if we don’t turn around and look at what scares us, then we will Stay, what we resist persists. As they say, I find that to be very true. And it’s of great value, that we, that we dive deep, I still dive deep, I still, one thing I’m struggling with recently is wanting to be accepted by the group. I still feel that way sometimes. And if I’m still wanting that, then there’s still ego and be attached to some form of outcome. And so and so and afraid that I won’t get the love and approval that apparently some part of me desperately still wants

Brandon Handley 25:32
a madman No, I get it, I get it. And, you know, this is this is something I actually just did a transformational kind of session last week or the week before with the very same thing, like, you know, yeah, like, what’s your, you know, what’s your hang up? I’m like, it’s belonging, right. Like, it’s just, and that was in the session I did was it was great, right. But you know, just saying, I get the whole belonging part, right. And and so, you know, what do you do with that, right? And it sounds to me, like, Look, you just kind of keep stepping towards it, right? Like, that’s it,

Christian Bradley West 26:05
that’s it, you, you acknowledge the fear, and you go, and this, and I go, fuck you, you do not get to drive the car, right? And sometimes you don’t even get to sit in the backseat, sometimes you have to get in the trunk. And I just say, no, we’re not doing this, I really, I really have to have that conversation with myself. That’s not what I’m doing now.

Brandon Handley 26:27
That’s great. Now that we’re at now, where do you find that kind of impacting what it is that you do, and like, how you getting you know,

Christian Bradley West 26:35
so I show up, I participate. Because otherwise, if we feel ashamed, and we feel like what we don’t have to offer is a value to people. And shame being not I feel bad, but that I am bad, right? There is something wrong with me isn’t how I define shame. Um, and so if we feel any of that, and we’re essentially judging what we have to offer, then we’re doing a disservice to ourselves, but also to other people that might be seeking it. And right now, there’s this explosion of amazing people, like you and so many other people out there who are wanting to provide information to people that can help them on their journey. And if we’re not doing that, then we’re we’re essentially we’re allowing our, the junk to get in the way, and potentially being very selfish because of that, because we want to protect ourselves, right? So stepping into that space of vulnerability to me very consciously, I call becoming available. So I value being available. So I choose the availability and what it’s teaching me is to show up every day, because my inclination has been to go run in my room and hide sure the ad and become very introverted. Sure. And go, No, I don’t want to do that. And what if I get judged for it? And what if people don’t like it? And what? What if I fuck up? You know?

Brandon Handley 28:01
Yeah, no, look, I agree, right? I love that too. What if you fuck up? So what is your life? Right? Like, anyways? Like, you know,

Christian Bradley West 28:09
I cannot is that even true? Because as I as as one of my dearest friends on the planet says, you have to be every bend to be where you are.

Brandon Handley 28:16
Right? Well, I mean, it was funny. We’re getting ready for this podcast. And, you know, we’re working on the lighting and, and getting the video all set up. Right. And, and I didn’t say it, but like, you know, the deal is like it you worked a whole life to get to this point, you know, this is the best you’ve ever loved today,

Unknown Speaker 28:33
right now.

Brandon Handley 28:34
Right? So so I’m not gonna look any better today than you look right now. So, I love that, um, what if I called up so if I call you up for a session, you know, what, what type of sessions am I calling up for like,

Christian Bradley West 28:52
so there there is. There’s really two I I did put on my website, multiple options, but I find it doesn’t matter what you choose, because we will always get to the nitty gritty, we’ll always get to the source of whatever, whatever information is needed. Right now, the tools are different. Some people are more comfortable with astrology, so I can do that. Some people are more comfortable with Tarot. So I do that some people want Oracle cards, or some people don’t care. They just go you have information for me. You can help me clarify something. Let’s do it. Let’s go have a party together. So we do for like an hour and we we talk we throw cards. I always start off with numbers numerology, I don’t know why I’m terrible at math. And the universe is like, Oh, hey, we’re gonna have to do numerology in order to tune into this person. And it is it’s kind of like you giving me your passcode to the Wi Fi or your computer that we get in there. And it’s like, Okay, I see this happen. Like, it’s really,

Brandon Handley 29:54
yeah, it’s an it’s interesting process. That’s cool and use, I think I heard you say like, most of the people, a lot of people are calling about relationships and whatnot,

Christian Bradley West 30:04
relationships tends to be one of the primary, um, one of the primary discussions, one of the primary readings that people want. And it is a primary way that we learn, we, we learn relationally everything in this world is in relationship you’re in, we’re in relationship with our microphones right now with our, with our recording devices, with whatever. So, um, but human relationship tends to cause the most amount of drama, because it is so nuanced, and so and instigate the triggers, sure, that require our attention in any given moment, for our healing, which, from my perspective, the root of the word healing is just hope. So it’s whatever is going to lead us into more homes. Sure. Sure. Yeah.

Brandon Handley 30:58
Yeah. No, and I love that right. When your relationship with someone over time they get to know all your triggers, right. Yeah. And, you know, they keep pushing them and to balance with you, you know, that’s where we learn how, where our points are that need to be fixed, right? That’s what yeah, it’s not them. It’s like these are these are your triggers. They’re not

Christian Bradley West 31:18
their triggers? No. Well, and and if you are conscious enough, then you’ll choose someone who’s not going to do it on purpose, or, or maliciously, because some people do that some people will weaponize the triggers, and general use them in order to manipulate or do whatever. And I’ve experienced that in my life. And I’ll and I’ll be like, Okay, this is, you know, you’re operating in this fashion. Can we discuss about this? And, and how can I change it out also in this, like, what’s going on here. And for me, what I realized is a lot of those relationships I had to step away from, because if someone was unaware of their own triggers as well. And, and, and also triggering other people to say, if you, if you don’t heal your wounds, you’ll bleed on others. So it’s important. It’s really important to understand who we are, and then also look at our partners and understand them so that we can be of service to their own process. Yeah, so hopefully, that happens. I don’t see that a lot. But I do see it changing. There are a lot of people out there who are ready to come together. We talk about unconscious coupling, our conscious uncoupling, but most of it is unconscious coupled instead. Right? Right, right.

Brandon Handley 32:37
Absolutely. I mean, look, I can’t I can’t say that. I can’t save the relationship that I’m in now that it was like a, it was a conscious decision.

Christian Bradley West 32:46
No, but it can become that it becomes that like over

Brandon Handley 32:50
Yeah, right. Like, absolutely. And as you kind of, I don’t want to say evolve, like, I don’t like the words evolve. I don’t like the, you know, leveling up or any of that shit. Like, it’s, again, I struggle

Christian Bradley West 33:00
with it to

Brandon Handley 33:02
remembering who you are getting back to your true sense of self, right? Like, because

Christian Bradley West 33:09
we’ll frame it in the way of the physical realm, it appears that we’re expanding or leveling up, it appears that way. But if we’re coming from a space of wholeness, and spirit, and in that spirit of wholeness already, then you already recognize the entirety exists. So you’re not trying to grab something in order to expand or level up, you’re just going, Okay, it already exists. And I’m going through the motions here, of this experience and this physical reality. So it appears that things expand and contract here, but of course, when you’re looking at it from a different perspective, everything already exists. And already is and its wholeness.

Brandon Handley 33:47
Right, so everything already exists. You just got Yeah, I’m aware of it. Right. Like that’s the that’s Yes, the line. That’s the line. What, um, all right, look, I love it. Right. Um, let’s see what else I have for you today. We talked about alkalizing your stuff, right? I pulled that out of one of the podcasts that you kind of mentioned. If someone’s not familiar with a, you know, alchemy beyond transmuting gold, you know, lead into gold added to gold. Yeah, from back in the day. You know, let’s talk a little bit about what does it mean to optimize?

Christian Bradley West 34:18
Yeah, so it’s I also in my very country way, other way I do it is using manure to grow wild flowers. So it’s taking your life’s shit, right? And then consciously applying it going, Okay, what’s the lesson throwing it on the garden? You know, and of course, everyone knows if anyone’s ever had a garden it requires tremendous tending, right because the deer come and eat things or other critters and you have any insects and all that stuff. So you have to tend to it that way. And you have to fertilize it. You have to decide some soils need extra things in order to PR certain plants to grow and you know, so It really it’s about becoming aware of what happened. What was the trauma? What was the junk mean going, how can I use this, for instance, speaking about my relationships, one relationship in particular, the person had been molested and was an alcoholic. And it I started to research more about shame, I started to research more about what healthy relationships look like, as well. I started to research all these things. And it gave me a whole nother set of tools that I wasn’t using. And so yes, that relationship was very painful and heart wrenching, and very difficult to go through. Sure. And I left it with all this information. And now I work with a lot of people who have struggled with those same things either within themselves or within relationships with their partners. And now I say, Okay, here are some tools that I have to try that. So that’s one way outcome is it it’s like, okay, don’t focus on the negative aspects of it. Although acknowledge it, don’t bypass it. Okay, that was painful. That hurt like crap. But but then attend to it and go, Okay, well, well, how can I? What did I learn? what’s the takeaway? What’s that? So in alchemy, of course, you have the fire, right? And the fire burns away everything that isn’t the gold, and you’re left with the gold. And so the alchemy to me is really a process of recognizing the value in every circumstance, and taking that gold and turning into something else. And I also say, from grid into gold, so it’s like, we take it and and we make it our own. But alchemy is the process that we’re responsible for. We also another aspect of alchemy is applying meaning to your own life, and not allowing another person place or thing, some authority outside of you to apply the meaning. You get to decide what that relationship meant, what that circumstance meant, what that event meant to you. And no one else can decide that for you. And in that way, you’re optimizing it.

Brandon Handley 36:59
Yeah, no, I mean, and I think in that situation, too, you become the true creator of your own life. Right? Like, yeah, and you’ve got all the pieces, the bits and pieces and the parts, but at some point, you realize that you are designing your own life, and you’ve got your own meaning your own purpose, your own. Yeah, you know, set of logic that makes it all happen, right? Yeah. And I saw, I love that there was another piece he said to talk about, like linearity, right? None of this is like not linear, right? None of this is linear. So anybody who says like, Listen, all you got to do is go or point A, at the left over here at point B, and you should arrive here at C, as you know, that’s the direction you go linear. What did you mean? Yeah, what do you mean by that, like?

Christian Bradley West 37:45
So I, one way that I, that I described it that I love is if anyone seen the seed of life, in anyone, google it if you if you’re listening, and you don’t know it, so it’s a set of seven circles, right? But they can expand into multiple more circles. And then if you really, if you look at it from a different perspective, it becomes a spiral. So you go around one circle, but then you hit on another circle and sons go around that circle, then you go around that circle, then you are on that circle, and then you go around that circle, then you go around that circle, and then you kind of sometimes hit on some of the things from that you’ve already learned, but then you go around it again. And so it’s, it’s not this straight. It’s not this, what I call vector consciousness, it doesn’t run on a straight line, no consciousness runs on a straight line. That’s essentially also what I would call in computer terms in AI as well, like a current AI is running on one terms, but of course, in AI talk, there’s also something called panoramic AI, which can see the whole picture, it’s not running on a vector anymore. And our consciousness is kind of like that. We start off with this linearity with this vector, okay, it’s one line. And then once we awaken, we start to realize we become panoramic, our vision becomes panoramic, when you start to see all these different circles, all these different things and to your point, um, you stop going, there’s just a dime, you go. There’s so many times there’s so many options. There’s so many ways of going about this. And, and sometimes, like in my healing of my body, I’ve had to target it from multiple ways through exercise, through herbs, through Central oils, sometimes through baths through eating certain foods through things like that. I haven’t healed my gut from just choosing Okay, I’m going to take this one medicine, and it’s going to fix everything, because there is no silver bullet usually. So in the linearity comes the exploration of the experience that

Brandon Handley 39:38
I love that dude, um, you know, just just while you’re talking about you know, healing the gut, right. Did you go through like I Vedic, uh, you know, how did you

Christian Bradley West 39:47
I try that early on. And what what I what has worked. Actually I’ve recently changed it up what has worked recently because I had another bout because I took a lot of animals For a tooth and jaw infection earlier this year, and was disrupted again. And what work this time is I have flooded myself with multiple strains of probiotics or different non dairy because I can’t do dairy. I’m non dairy yogurts, also taking certain probiotics, and also just really monitoring what is going into my body, I don’t eat really greasy food, I tend to do my best to stay away from refined sugars, and just allow anything that could potentially promote inflammation I stay away from, and then anything like herbs like marshmallow and slippery elm that kind of helped the mucosal lining, and we’re gonna sciency in that in that zone to help rebuild it, because the antibiotics kill is good bacteria that kind of helped keep that. So what I want to do is create an environment it was like, Okay, if I killed them all off, right? How do I support their regeneration? Right. Um, and before though, in the past, it’s been just like, bombarding myself with herbs. But, um, but this go round, I was like, I want to be more dynamic. So even in my practice of my life, I’m choosing to operate in that dynamic space, which again, the non linearity has benefited me greatly. And I’m, I say, I’m in the trenches with everyone. I’m over here do.

Brandon Handley 41:34
Right, right. I mean, I mean, none, I don’t think anybody’s like, perfect with all this stuff. Right. And they caught That’s why they call it that’s why I call it practice, right? Like, this is this is your practice, right? This is what you do. And these are the things that you’re doing. These are the habits that you created yourself. Um, yeah. And, you know, they serve you today, like, in a week, they could all fall apart. None of it’s working anymore. Right? Exactly.

Christian Bradley West 41:57
Oh, which has happened, which is happened.

Brandon Handley 42:01
Tanya, so I, you know, one of the things, you know, we see out there, at least, that’s what I see, you know, in this motivational, entrepreneurial, all this other stuff, right, like, stay the course, just keep with it, keep sticking with it, and you’ll make it or whatever. And you know, or don’t deviate, there’s discipline, you got to stick with it, the rigor, yada, yada, yada. And so that can make it difficult to let go of some of the habits that you’ve created, or some of the things that you’ve done. So talk about, like breaking the habits that aren’t serving you anymore, and recognizing that they’re not serving you anymore.

Christian Bradley West 42:33
This is a couple of things here, I say keep going does not mean doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. So keep going and staying consistent does not mean that you don’t adapt, you consistently adapt. So that’s what you bring into the fold there. At least that’s been my lesson. And then the other part of it is research shows because I’ve done a lot of research, I’ve researched this a lot myself, research shows that we don’t break habits. So we have these grooves in our brains, right, we create this neural pathway. And what ends up happening is we choose differently. So that old neural pathway essentially grows over and starts to disintegrate as we start using a new one. And I struggle with the term habit, because any habit to me feels unconscious. So the only habit I think anyone needs is to be present and do everything on purpose. Because if you are it breaks the pattern of I have to do it the right way. Because the linearity comes through with the right way I have to do this, I have to learn as you said, You know, I have to follow this structure, I have to do it this way. Well, if that structure is not working anymore, then you become curious about it. And you go, Okay, is there a different structure, and then you start to research and then you start to find that there’s other options. There’s other ways of doing it. And so, And to me, that’s living on purpose. It’s and then connecting it to what we talked about earlier with conspiracy theories is is I say, be a researcher ask questions, because that is going to forward our momentum, with our consciousness and with anything we do. So if for whatever reason you quote unquote, as they say, gets stuck, then the next thing to do is go Okay, am I operating out of out of a habitual mode? And can I change that so again, the and they may be the only habit. The other habit is when you’re operating on purpose in the present is that you’re also adapting. So each moment has its own set of circumstances that are very individual and as unique as the individual approaching them. So it’s of great value for us to recognize what’s useful there because what it’s like another example I use for being very linear is going okay, I’ve been using the screwdriver, you know, to to drew screws, but now it’s time to use a nail. Well, if you try and hammer The nail with the screwdriver, that’s going to be really difficult. So get the damn hammer and stop trying to use the screwdriver and go kind of stuff this isn’t working, it’s like, No, just fine, adapt and locate the tool become aware of the tool that’s going to support you through the process.

Brandon Handley 45:19
Yeah, I mean, I like that a lot. Because, you know, be aware that you don’t have the tool that you need for the process right then and there. Right? Like being being aware that this, this tool doesn’t serve this process. What is the tool that you need? Right?

Christian Bradley West 45:34
Well, and so like I say, on my website, if you can’t see the forest for the trees, then maybe you need to listen to the forest. Maybe you need to feel the forest, maybe there’s a different way of moving through the circumstance that you’re not aware of. Because maybe you’re not supposed to see the forest through the trees. Maybe that’s not the point. Then you then you stop doing that you go, Okay, I need to close my eyes and just feel out what to do.

Brandon Handley 45:58
Yeah, yeah. I love that. There’s another there’s another piece that I’ve seen a lot too is like cleaning your energies by leaning up on a tree, right? type? Yeah. But I mean, there’s so many, you know, so many different places to go with that. You know, you also mentioned, you know, just asking the different questions, right. I’ve recently read a book called, asking a more beautiful question. Right, and just talking about it, but and it gotten to the one point and really what I loved is, you know, talking about when you decided to become like the clairvoyant and really lean into the space, you could have done this, that or you could have chosen another path, right. And one of the questions that he had in the book, and I love it is, you know, which one of these makes a better story, you know, at the end of the day, right? Which, which one of these, which one of these motions do I take in life is going to make a better story? And he’s, like, always choose the one that’s going to have the better story,

Christian Bradley West 46:55
right? Oh, God, I think I have done that my whole life. I think I chose to do that when I was very young and have been devastated by it, but in the best possible.

Brandon Handley 47:05
I mean, you know, I’ll throw it out there. Like, uh, you know, sometimes I’ll pick like, some hotels or motels that I probably shouldn’t, right. But I’m more interested in the outcome, right, like, what happened what’s gonna happen with it when I went to one where there was like, a Stanley Steamer, you know, vacuum van in there, and it looks like there’s probably a murder getting cleaned up. Right. And, and, and when I got up into my hotel room, like the the frame of the hotel door, solid steel, and there was like, dense in there. I was like, this is just a bad idea. And I stayed there anyways. But um, you know, I was showing and sharing pictures with other people are like, Yeah, no,

Christian Bradley West 47:43
you know, I actually, I stayed in a hotel in New York, I stayed in a room that had a murder. I and I, and I had nowhere to go. I had to stay there that night. And I went downstairs and said, I need extra sheets, because somehow the bed sheet had come apart. And there was no bed cover. And the and I knew exactly what it was because I’d seen it enough. The entire mattress was soaked with blood. Kidding me it No, it was it was and it was before I had a camera phone. So it was a while ago. And But yeah, I pulled it back. And somehow and I was like, This is soaked. I say this is soaked through it. But somebody died here. somebody died on this mattress, and they did not get rid of it. Yeah, so anyway, interesting story that I really tell but you

Unknown Speaker 48:36
know, tell stories. Just say

Christian Bradley West 48:39
I was downstairs and I was like, I need to change rooms. Or we need it. I need more linens. I need something to not be so close to this mat dead mattress. And there was no other place to go. And I didn’t want to change hotels and it was too late. So yeah, cuz I’d gotten in like way early in the morning. So yeah, so anyway, so it was an interesting experience. I was like, Oh, crap, someone died on in this bed.

Brandon Handley 49:06
So so you chose the better story like I did with the good out? No, it could have gone somewhere else anything else could happen? And you’ll be like, I was bloody I left but no, you bloody

Unknown Speaker 49:19
does that you do. Um, and that’s,

Brandon Handley 49:21
that’s that’s I mean, that’s to me. I think that’s kind of like that. That’s what makes life kind of fun, though. You know, making this choice. Yeah, like, you know, I could totally go stay at the nice place and that’s okay. Yeah, this is something else like there’s life yeah, there’s life in this place right in this space.

Christian Bradley West 49:37
Try with follow your intuition people. Something says don’t go there. Don’t

Brandon Handley 49:43
know. Are you are you a follow your bliss kind of guy or you know, where do you stand with that?

Christian Bradley West 49:48
Um, I think that gets really tricky because bliss can come from judgment, sometimes what I think is better or best or superior. Sometimes people go Oh, This is better than that. And so yes and no, what I am is follow your intuition. Follow, get very grounded in your own being, and your own authenticity and your values, what works for you, I like to make it very practical, because otherwise follow your bliss can be running from one thing of happiness to the other. And I don’t subscribe. I don’t like the word happiness, happiness, to me, points to the ephemeral pleasures that we experience in this life. And that’s not to say you can’t enjoy them was to say, though, is is to constantly be chasing it is like, is like trying to constantly chase the butterfly, you will never ever get it once you do get it What then? You know. So to me, it’s about creating your bliss, not following it. So you want to create it. And there are tools, which was to do that.

Unknown Speaker 50:51
What’s your favorite one?

Christian Bradley West 50:53
Um, well, we talked about the Four Agreements earlier from what I do. Every time I got your precise moment. I think whatever works, that works for me very early on, I’m actually rereading it. What I like the most about it is I think we only need one agreement with ourselves, which is to be honest with ourselves to be and to frame it in his way to be impeccable with your word. So be aware of the stories that we tell ourselves. So to your point, I’ll say, I’ve made the agreement to be honest with myself no matter what. So if there’s if I feel a certain way, or I’m thinking a certain way, oftentimes, I’ll stop like last night when I felt angry. And so there’s a narrative here, there’s a story, I’m not being honest with myself, there’s a lie living in me, and I want to confront it, and move through it. And record. And usually the lie for me is, you are not a value, your voice is not a value. You weren’t valued and recognized by people and as a child, or you were bullied or whatever. And I still feel very viscerally that way, even though the circumstances sometimes are not there. And sometimes you can be triggered by this lawless thing. And, and some days, I don’t feel it at all. And other days I do. So I just recognize the story. And then I decide to drop it and I go, you know what, I’m the author or authority of my life, right, which has the word author in it. I’m writing this, and I want to write a more peaceful story here. And this doesn’t, this doesn’t. This doesn’t add up. This doesn’t compute anymore. And I say Thank you Next.

Brandon Handley 52:24
Nice. Yeah. So so you kind of you confront it, right? You acknowledge it, and you determine whether or not it’s serving you or not. Yeah. And if not, you’re like, you know, what is my desired outcome? Right? Peace. What

Christian Bradley West 52:38
do I want to do now? Yeah, what do I want to do now? And I wouldn’t even call it a desired outcome. Because desiring peace, to me is the antithesis of having peace, but I just choose it, right? I just say, Okay, this is I’m gonna choose this now, and not even let another story get in the way.

Brandon Handley 52:52
Right, right. What is it? The whole the lady that goes up to Buddha was like, you know, I want happiness or something like that. He’s, like, removed the I removed the want and, you know, just be, you know, happiness or whatever.

Christian Bradley West 53:05
Yeah, exactly. So

Unknown Speaker 53:07
and

Brandon Handley 53:08
then you’ve got, you’ve got some books in process, right, let’s talk a minute or two about the

Christian Bradley West 53:14
lineup, right? Well, my mentor says they’re all the same book. Um, so the one that’s almost finished is is called Zora and the songs of singularity, and it’s about a dog that becomes conscious through nanotechnology, or humans disappear. And she realizes that it’s happened because, and militant AI has destroyed the planet or created an apocalypse. And she has to confront the AI in order to save her humans. So she was like, but just a dog for him. Yeah, kind of exactly. which I love. He said that because today, I was like, Oh, I kind of want to watch the matrix again. So I love you said that. So kind of, yeah, it’s kind of a cry. It’s kind of a doggy matrix. You know, Neuromancer, if anyone has read William Gibson’s Neuromancer, which, by the way, inspired the matrix, and then we’ll crosskeys won’t deny it. And then the other than to the graphic

Brandon Handley 54:07
was that the

Christian Bradley West 54:08
graphic novel or that it was turned into a graphic novel, but it was originally I think, published in 1986. by William Gibson, it’s a wonderful book for anyone’s to read it, it really it was, it was where cyberspace was coined, he really did. And it’s about confronting an AI. But really confronting the people that want to stop it, but it’s an interesting read for those sci fi people out there. But, um, so that that book is forthcoming. Um, I’m finishing this other draft, it started in 2011. Just keep sitting it down and sending it out, and it just keeps getting rejected. So we’ll see if it’s different this time because I reframed it as a young adult, because my other two books are for adults. And I said, Well, why not have it? And as always, it has a spiritual bands. It’s about becoming conscious. And then once you become conscious, how do you use that consciousness? And then the other book, which I’m starting out as a podcast, is called here on purpose. And the podcast name is called, you’re here on purpose. And that’s the spirituality book. It’s just point blank, what my philosophy is, and I, my philosophy being that everything is on purpose. And we get to, but we get to decide that purpose ultimately, within the framework of, of all the other purpose. And so what what is a value at any given moment? And how do we embrace our own value and the significance of the now? Yeah, no, no? Yeah. Yeah. So those are the two and then I have a memoir that’s solely about my own story, because for some reason, I have to get that out of me. I don’t know. I don’t know if anything will come of that. But I’ve already I’m already a fourth of the way done. So I love it. And I think that, you know, you talked about before, like, it’s ultimately it’s about self expression. Right. expressing yourself. Always. That is I love it. Yes. That’s my word. Yes. It’s always about. You know, Rumi said, it’s, it’s not about finding the love, but I think it was me that said it but removing the blocks to it. And I feel like ultimately, what we call love is also just just expression, pure, utter, authentic expression, and we am moving toward that in her life and dropping everything that blocks that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Brandon Handley 56:22
Let me get rid of the stuff that’s not serving you. Right. Yeah. So the podcast is coming out when

Christian Bradley West 56:30
the plan is October. And like I said, it’s it’s a devotional kind of daily or weekly. It’s not very long. I it’s just it’s just me. And some meanderings that I see people might might enjoy just thought provoking, just getting people to ask questions that you can easily listen to and 10 to 15 minutes and go about your day. Yeah. Yeah. Does that Thunder?

Brandon Handley 56:59
One of my children? Ah ha ha. like thunder, but different. Um,

Unknown Speaker 57:09
and then, uh, you know, where can people connect with you?

Christian Bradley West 57:12
So you can find me on the country clairvoyant.com my website or Christian be West? And hold on a second apparently. There’s I if I disappeared. phone call was coming through. I’m back. Yeah, so sorry, guys. So yeah, Christian be West, or the country, February’s calm Hussein website, or on Instagram, the country clairvoyant.com or if you Google or look up Christian Bradley West, you can find me very easily on every platform. Um, I’m also on Twitter. I don’t do a lot there yet. I’m kind of in love with Instagram. Mostly. Sometimes it annoys me, but I think our social medias go Yeah, I feel like

Brandon Handley 57:56
that’s a more of a authentic kind of nature to it. Right? I don’t know.

Christian Bradley West 58:00
Yeah, well, people face it, Facebook will stop messing with it. But yeah. Fair enough.

Unknown Speaker 58:08
Fair enough. Um,

Brandon Handley 58:09
any, any parting words, anything that, uh, that we didn’t cover that you feel like should have came out on this podcast,

Christian Bradley West 58:19
the source of all abundance, and is going to be gratitude. If people we didn’t talk about abundance, or the law of attraction, or any of those things there’s a lot of people get into or want to know about, and I just say, grateful, I am completely grateful we’ve had this talk is just delightful. I love doing this. And, and, and from my perspective, maintaining a state of gratitude is serves us

Brandon Handley 58:46
could talk about the word I mean, talk about that, though, is that a feeling? Is it a thought?

Christian Bradley West 58:51
It can be it can be instigated as by thought. My practice is for people. And this is a great place to end on is put your hand on your heart. And then you can think of something that you’re grateful for. But then drop that in, simply feel into the gratitude. And don’t make it contingent on something that you think you need for your happiness. simply move into it, there was a great story of a Japanese a Japanese wise woman and and and a man went to her and said I need to know how to be enlightened. And she gave him this one word that said, Thank you, I have no complaints. And he went throughout the whole way. He went throughout the whole year on this journey and it comes back to a year later and he goes I still am still not enlightened. And I’ve been saying what you’ve been saying every day. I’ve been practicing it. And she said thank you. I had no complaints and he got it. Hmm gratitude disrupts the complainer within us and and opens the way for any number of experiences to present it. Are life.

Brandon Handley 1:00:01
Awesome. Thank you so much for being on today.

Christian Bradley West 1:00:04
Thank you my friend. Oh, it was so great. Thank you. Thank you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Without watering down your faith.

Great conversation with Cory Walker as we discuss being groomed for church leadership, leading a community… and leaving it all behind as his path diverted from the expectations from others.

http://www.churchbeentheredonethat.com/

Brandon Handley 0:00
54321 Hey there spirits of dope. It is Brandon Handley and today we are on with Corey Walker, who is the author of boiling down your religion without watering down your faith. Cory spent about 20 years being a minister correct me if I’m wrong anywhere in here this but a minister in an Pentecostal, Pentecostal I don’t even know how to say it right. Like I said so in a Pentecostal church and stepped out after 20 years of being in a leadership role and kind of took refuge in his own heart on my call, and the sides live just outside of the church confines and more in like I said, john Hart said about right Corey

Cory Walker 0:53
Davis some sort of modular.

Brandon Handley 0:55
So you know, Cory I always like to say that we are Are vessels of the divine right? The Creator speaks through us. Right. And and when people are turning in tuning into this podcast, they’re tuning in to hear a message that is being delivered through you to them. And my question to you, as we start this thing off is what what is, what is something somebody out there needs to hear today that can only come through you?

Cory Walker 1:26
Wow, great question.

Cory Walker 1:30
Well, there’s several different things. I could go here, but the long and the short of it is don’t be afraid to make a change, if you feel like it, if it’s following your heart. So many of us were raised that particular way. We’re taught what to believe, and taught how to be taught what to think without being really taught how to think. And you if you’re just believing doctrine or someone else’s beliefs, and you’re trying to hold to those instead of actually listening in Your heart towards the divine. And my case, God would be wanting to say to you that you could easily spend years following something that that you end up feeling like you’ve wasted time later on. So don’t be afraid to make a change. I guess that’s my, that’s my off the cuff response.

Brandon Handley 2:16
Sure, sure. I love that. I mean, and you did right, you made the made this change to 20 years and I think the the line that comes to mind is you know, don’t put your ladder up against the wrong wall right through and and that there’s really nothing. And I think that a lot of people are afraid to kind of go chase this thing, but what you’re saying is, even even after maybe climbing halfway up the ladder, maybe you’ve already made it all the way up to the top, but

Unknown Speaker 2:47
it’s okay to make a change. It’s okay to climb

Brandon Handley 2:49
back down and go climb another ladder. Is that what I’m hearing you say?

Cory Walker 2:53
Yeah, definitely, especially if the letter sounds or letters keeping more consistent, like what you’re feeling in your heart. I just know. You know, it’s Been a pastor for so many years, I met with so many people talk with so many other leaders who, who knew how to toe the company line. But in private, they would say, Well, what do you think about this, though, that doesn’t really sit with what we believe and what we teach. But it’s like they had their own private belief system outside of the public one that they were telling everyone else. And you just can’t do that for extended period of time without, you know, driving yourself crazy. Because the inconsistency just couldn’t live that kind of dualism. And so you try to modify what it is you teach and teach the parts of what you have what you’ve learned and believed over the years that still ring true with you, and leave the other parts out of the fact is the whole. The whole last two years, my ministry I never preached even one sermon from the Old Testament part of the Bible, because it seemed to communicate that there was an angry God who was demanding that you behave a certain way. And if you didn’t do you’re in big trouble. And that just didn’t jive with the message of Jesus, which was what’s taught in the New Testament to me, and I understand the theological demands sticks that people do that night to neatly tie the two together because I went to Bible college but that doesn’t mean that the average Joe and common sense of really why don’t we are under grace, why do I have to do and you fill in the blank whatever it is your local church is telling you you have to do in order to be a good Christian.

Brandon Handley 4:18
Sure, sure. And I think the thing is, it’s a shame that Christianity’s you know, kind of been fractured in so many different ways away from the the, the true meaning of the messaging right now. And what the hell do I know though? I really don’t know too much. I don’t I haven’t been involved with too much of it. But what I do know is that when I have a conversation with you know, somebody such as yourself that you know, is really just been immersed in it and and they find Jesus or I think, what do they call it like a, you know, the Jesus consciousness, right? It’s kind of like, you know, one of the things that gets tossed out there is what’s in those books is kind of like truth and from the heart, but how its interpreted and spun back around is either liberal or kind of fit fitting the needs of the organization that’s driving it.

Cory Walker 5:19
Now let’s move on been so true. You know, parts of the specifically if you read the gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and john, telling me all about the life of Christ in His, the economy of Christ, if you want to love your neighbor, pray for your enemies. Love those who persecute you go the extra mile turn the other cheek, those kind of things rang really took my heart, but the way in which the church lives out the teachings of Christ, and that’s them together with with a lot of the old, old covenant Old Testament law type, you know, thou shalt nots, and just the whole organizational structure that’s set up to basically support itself. I just reached a point when I realized that you Man formed these nonprofit organizations that we call churches to supposedly help the members who are the people in their spiritual walk. But somewhere along the way, the organization starts to expect the members to do what’s in its best interest and spin it

Brandon Handley 6:17
around. I would like to I would like to kind of caveat it right. This has been your right. Yeah. So I mean, because there’s that there’s definitely got to be a couple out there. Right. They all Yeah.

Cory Walker 6:29
Yeah. I don’t want to categorize across the board is my experience. Yeah, with the with eight or 10 churches that I was either attending or on staff at over the years, the older the organization, the more likely it is that the the, the principles get minimized, and the traditions get emphasized. And as a result, it’s about self sustaining many times instead of about really bringing life and health to, you know, the average individual and once I realized that then I just took Couldn’t, I just couldn’t myself, continue to be a part of one. And I’ve even thought now that I’m not on staff someplace or a pastor someplace that, well, maybe I should just attend this church or that church, and I’ve stepped into a couple for service here there. And it just doesn’t take long when you’ve been in leadership for a while for you to start hearing the same familiar, you know, course and tone of what it is we’re supposed to do. And it was supposed to is that kind of wore me out, I think.

Brandon Handley 7:27
Yeah, no, that makes sense, right? It’s kinda like all the shoulds and codes that we could be doing. Well, let’s, let’s roll it back here for a second. So let’s tell, you know, tell anybody listening today that, you know, what type of church were you? a minister at and a leader and then what does that even mean? Right, because like I said, we talked about Pentecostals. Let’s talk a little bit about what that is and what that’s built on top

Cory Walker 7:54
of, if you could, sure. Yeah. Well, essentially, within Christianity you have two veins. You have Catholics Protestants. And in the Protestant vein, you have thousands, literally thousands of what we call denominations, which are different or different organizations, like Baptist or Methodist or Pentecostal, different Pentecostal denominations. But the bottom line is, each one of them has a different set of standards and rules for themselves that they believe slightly different than the other ones. And the fact is, all of them would tell you that they were originally formed because some people who were a part of some other organization said, Well, we think we got a new enlightenment or we got just a little bit better understanding. So we’re going to form our own. And so I grew up in those in most of those denominations in America anyway, sit within a category called have called evangelicals, and many times, also called fundamentalists, and those are people who have a belief that there’s a divinely inspired scripture, and in our case, the Bible, and that is to be literally interpreted and applied to your own life and there things in the scripture that I have discovered that just didn’t seem to sit well with literally applying them to my own life as an example that were like there’s a there’s a passage in the Old Testament that talks about one of the prophets, I believe it was Elijah, what could have been Elijah, I was getting confused. And it says that, that these this prophet was walking in the woods and have a group of juveniles it says are teenagers came out and started teasing him because he had a bald head, he didn’t have any hair. And he says that he called down a curse upon them, and a bear around out of the woods and devoured some of them and wounded the others. So this was the man of God that we’re supposed to be you know, maybe patterning our lives after looking up to her as a fundamentalist your thinking was, I could get so special that it wouldn’t be okay for kids to even tease me about my bald head. And if I was upset about it, I could call on a curse upon them and kind of wild animal could come and attack them. Did this didn’t sit well with my concept of God or with my understanding of Christ and his philosophy of loving your enemies and things like that, but yet, fundamentalists have to weave all those stories together in the Bible and all those truths and things that are there and try to apply them to their daily lives just becomes quite a quite a conundrum.

Brandon Handley 10:22
So they’re a fundamentalist, and they’re applying it literally. They’re, they’re not using like that in any symbolic terms,

Cory Walker 10:31
or allegory. Yeah, it’s one of those things. That’s not really how it’s taught. And most of the most of the denominations it’s taught as this was an Old Covenant time where God related to man in a different way than he does now. And so things have been different back then than they do now. And that you know, kind of how we smooth it over and help people feel better about you know, the Sodom and Gomorrah and the gods flooding the earth and you know, everyone but Noah being killed There’s no assembly being killed, things like that. But I remember as a, as a father of young children go into, you know, our evangelical church and just thinking, I don’t want to send my kids to Sunday school because I don’t want anybody to teach them some of these stories. And I don’t even know, I don’t know how the, I don’t know how the Sunday school teachers going to teach them these stories, or they’re going to teach him, you better behave, or God’s gonna get really mad at you, and rain down fire and brimstone on you, you know, or turn you into a pillar of salt or whatever the other story is in the Old Testament. So, you know, fundamentalists do believe in a literal interpretation of Scripture. And therefore those things would not be allegory or symbolic things that actually happened. And God was relating to man, I personally now, I still hold great reverence for the scriptures and find a lot of truth in there. But I just see them as being written. While there’s a lot of truth, they’re written from a man’s point of view. And man was walking in the light that he had at the time and the culture was different, and therefore, even some places like Like even one of the even one of the passages where supposedly Moses wrote the passage, it was handed down through generations of verbal, you know, communication that eventually recorded but it says right in the passage, Moses was the greatest of leaders at all times. So they’re like, let’s he writes about himself for Charlie aggrandized themselves? Or is this really you know, what’s going on? So, it’s just, you know, you just gotta understand that people are just, you know, culture was different back then. And it was recorded from man’s point of view, and not necessarily, from God’s words, to my ears to the pin on the paper type of inspiration.

Brandon Handley 12:37
Sure, yeah, I definitely get that I definitely get that. You know, but I got a wonder too, like, you know, so, this was also, you know, book that was compiled, you know, a library books, right, compiled, you know, way back when, and the translations over time as well. Right. And then one of the things that kind of pops up. I’m a fan of this guy, bill donohue, who, who, you know, has some pretty cool stuff on on YouTube. But he talks about, like, you know, what they were saying then could be real similar to so I’m hearing you talk about this, you know, called the curse and the bear chews them down, you know? And I’m thinking of how he would translate it and say it, it’s how we would say shooting the bull. Right? What was the other meaning of you know, calling that bear down on them? Right, you know, was that the bear within the man coming out and like, kind of raging out against some of those? Those are the types of things right, it’s really kind of a formula and you gotta you gotta wonder exactly, you got to really wonder and kind of play with it because I don’t personally feel like this was a book that was written to instill fear so much. Higher divinity.

Cory Walker 13:51
Yeah, I think it’s it was written, to help us to understand, in fact is to understand what God was like and, in fact, Jesus Himself So as you know, he comes incarnate. It’s like God in the flesh to show us what God was really like. But then he goes around loving the least of these, if you will, and hanging out with people that it wasn’t cool to hang out with prostitutes and tax collectors and all these people the riffraff of the day. And he really makes the religious people are really mad about it, you know, the Thera sees and the sadness is they’re getting all ticked off all the time. Because Jesus not really interested in in hanging with them. He’s hanging out with the least of these. So I think you see, at least from the perspective and the story of Christ that the gods are more concerned about the little guy than he is how spiritual react or you know how much we’ve got our ducks in a row.

Unknown Speaker 14:42
Now, fair enough, fair enough.

Brandon Handley 14:43
So, Pentecostal, what does that mean? Was it meant to mean to be a Pentecostal or Penn is a Pentecostal or Pentecost? Yeah,

Cory Walker 14:49
sir. Pentecostal. Um, yeah, essentially Pentecostalism started around 1900 and it’s a form of denomination several denominations of one of Christianity, that, that believes in the teachings of the Day of Pentecost, which is found in the book of Acts in the Bible. And it talks about a variety of gifts that God gives to man’s spiritual gifts. But Pentecostals focus in on one, which is called speaking in tongues, and it’s one of the more controversial ones. Or if you may have heard of, you know, holy rollers or people swinging from the chandeliers or wildfire, and all this weird kind of stuff in Christianity over the years, and over the last hundred hundred years or so, it’s all about Pentecostals, and it’s about having an emotional experience with God. And as a result, feeling like you’re greater connected to him, and I can really value and understand that desire, though. It’s also very centered around worship, which in modern context is, is the singing and playing of music, to bring reverence to God and to honor God and to talk about how good he is. But it’s all about what kind of experience in a Pentecostal church what kind of experience you can have when you Get together. It makes you feel good emotionally goosebumps on your arms, you know feeling like God’s presence is right there with you in the room. And all this stuff is inside emphasize you know from our kids church, we’re little kids and go into special special church service for them on Sundays right on up through the youth groups run up through the adult service. And so, you know, God really showed up is what we’d say if you felt you know, something emotional happening when when the worship was going on, or when the preacher was preaching or whatever the case may be.

Brandon Handley 16:31
Sure, no, I mean, I can I can definitely appreciate that. I know that actually just did a did a piece on the word numinous. Right? And it really sounds like it kind of speaks to the same type of space right where you’ve got connection with God or an experience. Um,

Unknown Speaker 16:50
and so,

Brandon Handley 16:52
I love I love it. It’s just sounds to me like it may have been

Unknown Speaker 16:56
over over exalted.

Cory Walker 16:58
Now. What came to focus yeah became the focus instead of me being one way to experience God, maybe it’d be the only way.

Brandon Handley 17:06
Sure not and I can I can definitely appreciate that. It’s very interesting. So the you said that there was a number of gifts and one of them speaking in tongues? What are some of the I mean, I don’t know the Bible myself, right. So how does somebody have the gifts that maybe, maybe some people aren’t aware of?

Cory Walker 17:22
Well, the Bible speaks of different spiritual gifts. And one particular case there’s a short list and then scattered throughout the rest of the Scriptures, that mentions other gifts. Like there’s a gift of spiritual gifts of gifting, where maybe God empowers you to make money, so that you can give that money towards his plans and his services. But then the fancy ones, if you will, the gifts that people were always hoping to have were like words of knowledge and words of wisdom, which would mean you’re speaking in a conversation with somebody and you have, I would call it you have a thought drop into your head and you share that thought with them and then boom, they’re suddenly hit. just overwhelmed was oh my gosh how did you know that or or contacts incredible how did you you know have to there’s no way you could have come by this on your own like God just dropped information into my head to share with you know almost on a profit basis and gift the process he was one of those things as well which was kind of speaking on God’s behalf more so than speaking to predict the future but so there’s all these different gifts and you were told you know this The Bible tells you to seek seek spiritual guests especially those that that build build up the body build one another up. But once again and this is coming across like Korea is the the tainted former pastor that is but but it seems like people are always looking for what we have made them look the best because all this happens most of these things I think God intended for them to be lived out in our daily lives. But something in modern Christianity is that we jam. We instead of seeing the churches who we are every day we see the church as a place we go In an event that we attend, so what happens with the spiritual gifts, what’s important is what happens when you get together. And therefore you’re doing it almost on a platform situation where you’re in front of others. And the man’s tendency to want to look good and pride gets in there. And you know, you never can tell what might happen. So, I chose doors. I’m not going to but I can tell stories.

Brandon Handley 19:23
No, I appreciate that. Right? Like so I mean, it as you’re kind of listing these off, right? without me being a member of a church or without me kind of going through the Bible, you know, this gift of giving is something that speaks to me, right, like, if you’re willing to give to others, then it’s my interpretation or my thought process that you know, the universe is going to continue to give to you, right, God’s gonna give you if you’re giving, you’re going to receive, right. And that’s, that’s kind of one way that I look at it, right. And then as you’re talking about these words of knowledge and wisdom, you know, words of wisdom. It can’t But make me think of the Akashic Records stuff. Right? So just kind of linking like different different. Yeah. Yeah. different spaces and, you know, gift the prophecies. I mean, I don’t know. Right. I think that i think that’s everyone, right? I think that it kind of, to me that kind of rolls back up into, you know, speaking in tongues, right? I just got goosebumps kind of thinking about it, right? Like, it rolls back into feeling that emotion and knowing that you’re kind of, you’re speaking your truth, right. But as you kind of roll back all the way back over to here, like, you know, each person kind of comes up with like, their own epiphany is like, oh, I’ve got a better way to explain it, you end up like, many, many thousands of different ways to kind of embrace and feel connected to God. Right. And, and for each person, I think that experience is going to be individual.

Cory Walker 20:50
Yeah, and I think that’s good because you know, a variety of theory, a variety of belief systems and a variety of ways, is a good thing because it allows each person to find The one that connects best with them. My biggest challenge over the years had been the the competitive nature that sets in. I remember growing up and there’s sometimes a god churches, which is the domination I was a part of, and they kind of cost the combination and they didn’t specifically teach it but you know, my wife grew up in the same denomination and both of us had a conversation where just kind of came away feeling like, you know, if you were a Christian, but you weren’t Assemblies of God, you weren’t quite getting it. All right, and, and you probably know that make it to heaven, but he probably wouldn’t get as many accolades as we would, because we were a part of this something of God. And so I went off, I went off to Bible College. I know that that wasn’t specifically taught in any of the classes, but I came away with the same feeling like we’re the elite. You know, we’ve we’ve got it going on. But one of the pastors in the church that I used to serve that used to say, he used to get up a couple times a year before Easter, the week before Easter, and the week before Christmas, and you get up and announce to the whole congregation, hey, you know, there’s people who only go to church twice a year on Christmas and Easter. And he said, You should invite people to come to our church on those days. Because if they’re going to go to church on twice a year, they should at least come to church or maybe something good could happen in their life, no kind of little dig at the other church. And it’s like they weren’t, you know, good enough, or whatever it is that that had crept in to almost every church scenario that I’ve been a part of, and I think it’s just a part of nature of man. Okay, okay.

Brandon Handley 22:24
No, I mean, that’s, that’s all fair. Right. So, you know, for so you’re a part of this for like, 20 years, last couple parts. You know, you just kind of started to fall out of it. And I’ve read briefly through your book. And you mentioned a book where you kind of helped you to kind of start separating away. Right. And you’ve shown it to one of your leaders. And he got it was like, Yeah, I don’t buy into this because it didn’t sound like it match with his way of thinking. Right,

Unknown Speaker 22:51
exactly. So

Brandon Handley 22:52
I’d love to hear a what was the book that kind of, you know, sure. It kind of changed your mind a little bit. What was that book

Cory Walker 23:01
I’m going to try to get the name right here. It’s a misunderstood God, and the lies that religion tells about him. I think the author was Darren Hufford. And he was a former pastor as well. But he was talking basically the same way that I have been, which is that there’s this God who loves you unconditionally, and has, has bent over backwards to make a way for you to connect with them. But yet religion spends a story, that’s something different, that seems undesirable to many people. And as a result, a lot of folks who want to find God don’t think that they can. And it just really started me thinking, the challenging some of the concepts and really, you know, you read a book and something rings true with you on the page and like, Oh, yeah, I’ve been thinking that for years. I just kept having that, you know, those kind of moments as I was reading the book with my wife, and I was like, wow, and then we just dove into, I don’t know, one point time, was right when I first started reading electronically, I had a I had a book reader at the time, and I remember And that period of time over about a year and a half that we digest, like 60 some different books, all around the same topics of church and what God intended for the church to be and spirituality and different things like that. Now, I’m a part of a men’s book group and we read, you know, a book a month and discuss it on Monday nights and we’re reading stuff that’s outside of the vein of Christianity, which I’ve always found to be very interesting because when you read outside of what’s your typical goto and you find the same truth elsewhere, then it starts to make you think that it’s because the author of the things that you hold dear, likely was the inspire some of the other things that you’re finding elsewhere in college. They called it all truth is God’s truth. Doesn’t matter where you find it. It says true.

Brandon Handley 24:50
Yeah, you know, and I agree with that, right. It’s it’s really interesting to find all these nuggets of truth everywhere. Right. It doesn’t really matter what you’re you find yourself reading, you start to see, like you’re saying kind of the same vein of how even movies, you know, show shows I’m watching. I’m like, Is anybody else seeing what I’m seeing here? Because it’s so it’s so obvious to me the story that’s being told. And again, though, it’s really like we started this, we start this podcast off with, you know, Cory, I’d like you to say something that only somebody else out there is gonna hear and understand. Right? It’s it’s kind of like I the way I’m watching that movie, or series, maybe nothing like what it was intended to be delivered. Right? Right. But I’m receiving it in a certain way, because that’s how I’ve set myself up

Cory Walker 25:45
now. But there’s a divine source that’s enter weaving truths throughout all genres and all aspects of life because because that divine source that I like to call God wants us to understand him and understand life. So So much that he’s willing to inspire people that don’t even know that they’re being inspired by them to share truth

Unknown Speaker 26:06
in a way that Okay,

Brandon Handley 26:08
again, like I mean, you know, something’s coming through you being spoken through you

Unknown Speaker 26:12
right now, this moment that

Brandon Handley 26:15
is intended for somebody else not even intended for you, for me, right now even intended for me and I love this. So here’s a really interesting book. It’s called horror, right? It’s called the vital center of man by he was a an analyst, the psycho psychological analyst, but he was also a orthodox, practicing Orthodox Christian, but he also spent time and about eight years with Zen masters, right. And, you know, one of the things that this one Zen masters said to them, was, it never occurred to me to keep keep weight to keep in my head what I’ve read If I mainly read the Bible or Buddhist books and prayers, I find that only such things that agree with my own thoughts. And I think that that’s what you and I are saying here is that when we’re reading now we’re like, the books are almost a mirror to what we’ve already learned and know, right? And this has been spoken back to you. And I find I found that was like, an amazing moment, right? When I read that line, I was like, holy shit, because I told my wife, I was like, everything that I’m reading is everything I’m already thinking of, and I’m just looking for the words to properly express it.

Cory Walker 27:31
Yeah, right. Some people and some people would say that you, you draw to yourself. There’s kind of a supernatural principle that you draw to yourself with as you’re looking for. You know, I just recently bought a different car. And the for my work vehicle and the type of card is I’d never really had thought about getting one before but once I got them then suddenly I see everywhere. I mean, every time I turn around, has fallen down the street. So it’s like, I didn’t look someone else’s got another one of those just like I do, I see it in part. parking lots everywhere. It’s like your mind becomes attuned to that which you’re used to or that what you’re looking for. And I looked for when I decided that’s what I wanted to buy, I was out there looking for him everywhere. And as a result, I’m My mind is turned on to that. I think it’s the same with what you’re saying what it is that you’re thinking and you’re feeling in your heart. And suddenly you start to see it come alive in the pages of books or in the movies or in the newspaper, on television shows or whatever.

Brandon Handley 28:25
It’s everywhere. It’s everywhere. My first my first blog and my first blog and a couple of my first videos was called just a wit You know, this is called the blue car effect. Right You know, they’re looking for a blue car you see him everywhere is exactly what I’m saying. And, and, you know, I often go through just like what you’re saying once you set that question in your mind you know, the answers start coming up for it right you don’t sure we go look and we Google, we do all these things, but it’s almost easier to ask you know, quote, unquote Ask the universe for an answer. Just let it kind of come to you let it show it will show up. Once you have that question for yourself, the answer will show up. Now you can do it again, you can go hardcore and go hit and all the books and put all this pressure and stress on yourself. But chances are, that answer is gonna show up.

Unknown Speaker 29:18
Right? Totally. Yeah.

Brandon Handley 29:21
So, um, you know, so where are you? I mean, what’s it like, now you’ve left? What was the separation? Like, I’d love to hear kind of like what that was like, and, you know, in in that in that scenario,

Cory Walker 29:32
that was like, divorcing everybody that you held dear. Hmm. And having everybody be mad at you, or at least it felt like it anyway. I’m sure part of its interpretation. But you know, when, you know, we kind of we didn’t really spend a story but you know, when we decided to move we moved. We decided to move when we decide to leave church we we moved out of the community we were part of and moved six hours away to a new area, and it had been On our heart to do it anyway. But this new area was very spiritually minded, but not real big on religion. So church attendance is really down here. But you see all kinds of alternative spiritual pursuits going on. And, and that’s kind of what we felt drawn to not that we were going to, you know, go start reading poems or doing something, you know, there was necessarily new age or this or whatever we still consider ourself Christians, we just felt like we wanted to be around non traditional people, because they’d be, you know, they’re not going to be looking down their nose at us because they don’t show up. And so the Pew on Sunday mornings, so it was a difficult time. Even my folks right now still have, I don’t talk about anymore, but I’m sure that they still shake their head like, I can’t believe you know, we raised this young man. And he, you know, felt this call on his life to go become a pastor. And then he did 25 years and now we just build on the whole thing. But what they don’t understand is my philosophy and I shared my book with them, and I hope that they’re gaining understanding but the philosophy is if we are the Church and that is the body of Christ as Christians, and it’s not the building. And it’s not an organization than whether or not we choose to go sit in the Pew on Sunday mornings are not as real as irrelevant. It’s whether or not we’re following the truth of God as expressed through our life and how we treat others on a daily basis. You know, my friend Jeremy messaged me earlier today and he said, What are you doing on this fine Lord’s day? And he was saying a tongue in cheek because for years for a year or so after I stopped attending church, my dad would text me about every few weeks and so on Sundays and say, What are you doing to honor God on this Lord’s day? And I started texting him back and saying, I thought every day was the Lord’s Day. Like we’re supposed to do something special on Sundays, right? But reality was saying, hey, let’s just make every day special and, and how we treat others and, and, and our daily practices is just as important everyday as it is on Sunday mornings.

Brandon Handley 31:56
So I mean, I’m curious. If you You know, kind of going through that separation process, if those are some of the words that you would use to share with others as to why you were leaving?

Unknown Speaker 32:10
Yeah.

Cory Walker 32:13
Most people didn’t ask quite frankly.

Cory Walker 32:17
You know, one of the reasons was, we were moving five, six hours away. So they just don’t know what we do or don’t want or what we don’t do. But the other part was for those who are closer, they grew up in the same kind of fundamentalist belief system. And there’s one particular scripture that says, Don’t forsake gathering together with other believers, as some are in the habit of doing and that that interpreted by every pastor I’ve ever heard, speak meant, make sure you’re in church on Sunday morning. And so when you just choose to say, that’s not, that’s not funny, that’s beneficial. And I don’t want that to be a regular part of my ongoing life, then people just, you know, there’s another practice that just kind of shown you it’s not necessarily intentional. I remember for years People have stopped coming to church and you try to get them to come back and let us not come back. And then you just say, Well, you know, that’s on them, I guess I’ll just minister to the ones who are still here, you know, but you just kind of gave up on them. And there’s a passage of scripture which says, if somebody departs of faith, try to try to turn them back. And then if they, you know, they still claim to be good followers of God, but refuse to do the things which are they’re supposed to be doing. They don’t have anything to do with them. And so I think a lot of Christians have been taught over the years based upon that scripture, that is somebody off the deep end, whether it’s messed up and drugs or alcohol or you know, cheating on their spouse or even just not going to church anymore, that you just kind of don’t have anything to do with them, either. Because somehow it’ll teach them a lesson, or because somehow their disobedience if you will, is going to tank, your spiritual walk. It’s just not a healthy thing. But unfortunately, that’s kind of the way it is a lot of boys.

Brandon Handley 33:54
That’s interesting, right? So, you know, Were you upset at all that nobody asked you You know that you know, get more requests?

Cory Walker 34:02
Yeah, you have a little bit of, it’s probably more grief than anger, just a little more grief, but you invested a lot into relationships, and then people just kind of, you know, part of the move, I’m sure, but that plays something into it. Because when you live six hours away from where you weren’t living, it’s just not convenient to connect in the way that you were before. And if like, oh, Cory and Lisa, his wife just moved off, you know, so Okay, well, I guess we’ll find some new friends. But you know, unfortunately, unfortunately, but I do have several. I have a band of about five brothers that good good men that I’ve known for a number of years and we all stay connected. Fact is, they’ve come down here and visited me multiple times we’ll have a rent a cabin or something and go out on the lake or, you know, sit around the bonfire, you name it, and it’s just been really encouraging time. So.

Brandon Handley 34:54
Okay, so you also mentioned being around people that are spiritually minded, right? What does that what does that mean to you?

Unknown Speaker 35:03
Huh? Yeah, it’s uh

Cory Walker 35:07
it all starts with heart to me. I mean, I’m not a big fan of doctrine, which is philosophies and ideas that we are taught that we follow as much as I am. What’s your heart? How do you? How do you perceive the universe in your case, or God, in my case, is, is wanting you to interact with others? And are you being true to that. And there’s a lot of people around here, even though there certainly would not be considered Christians, by most or even by themselves, that we’re living more of a Christ like life. So how they lived out their heart, then a lot of people that I’ve known in church over the years, because it was about checking the boxes and doing the to do lists, more so than how we treat everybody on a daily basis. So find a lot of people like that and we’re connecting with a lot of them. It’s been it’s been a journey. It’s Rio when you leave behind your paradigm and not just your city, you know, the, the place and the venue in which you were interacting with others is now gone because we don’t attend church, then it becomes really important what you do with your daily life when I’m working with my customers or my friends or working, my kids are working with their co workers or my wife’s interacting with people in the neighborhood, those things become incredibly important because they’re really the only interaction that you have. And that’s where your social life is going to grow from.

Unknown Speaker 36:30
Now I get it. So you know,

Brandon Handley 36:33
I think about Buddhism to one of the big pieces of that is is the community right so sounds to me like you know that that was the community and that was your space. What what are you replacing that with just just work? Have you been able to replace that sense of community anywhere else?

Unknown Speaker 36:55
Have

Cory Walker 36:57
we looked initially first organizations to get into They’re like, Oh, maybe we can find some nonprofit or volunteer this or that or whatever. And nothing seems to be a good fit. And it also is kind of seriously kind of pushing our organizational buttons, because when you’re part of a nonprofit organization for decades, you just learn the politics and stuff that’s behind the scenes. But what I have found Well, if you got time, I’ll give you a quick example. One of my customers just astounds me, I’m a licensed contractor now. I went to do a bathroom remodel. And the day before they, the I showed up, Dave, for I showed up, they were, they found out that his wife had breast cancer, and she was going to have to have a lump removed. And as a result, we were we were just trying to, you know, remodel her bathroom, but she just opened up and shared all this information with man. So I’m sorry, master bathroom. So she’s in there sitting on the bed, and adjacent room looking in while I’m working and just poring over heart and talking to me. And I’m like, well, she didn’t even know I was a former pastor. And I hadn’t even spoken Difficult as a Christian, but I was just listening to what she said, say and kind of just empathizing and trying to help her. And she seemed very appreciative of it. Well, then she goes in for an MRI right before her surgery to make sure that the cancer about spread and it hadn’t. But they found out that her aorta was enlarged, and she’s gonna have to open heart surgery. And so then she A week later, she goes to meet with a surgeon for open heart surgery. And he says, Well, I don’t think this is even operable. And I’d say you’ve got less than five years. And she’s like, Oh, my gosh, so she comes home and she’s just talking to me about all this stuff. And then I just opened the door for us to have conversation about what it means to be alive and what takes place after you die and how none of us really know exactly what that is. But we have to do whatever it is that helps us find peace in the moment. And then I just was able to share with her that I believe in the divine, and that I believe that good things away for us after the fact because because of his goodness, not because of ours and then just loved on her and told her I was praying for her and master if there’s anything we could do to help, and we walked her dog while she was out having surgery and you know, just trying to be a decent human being, and that seems to be more important to me than ever before, because that’s where I’m meeting people. And that’s where I’m making connection. So,

Brandon Handley 39:18
sure, sure. Sounds to me too, like, focusing on the few right, focusing on the present, focusing on the moment. And not not being concerned with like, having to have like, to being good, decent human being. Yeah, right. And does it does it need to be more, but it sounds like your community is kind of like within those that you everybody’s part of your community?

Cory Walker 39:42
Yeah, I always felt like I was felt a little resentful, in fact, because I had this quote, unquote, calling on my life through your minister and it seemed like everybody else had their regular life. And then, and that was it. And I had my regular life and the special calling, which involved me doing all these extra things to go above and beyond. It’s just like, Oh my gosh, how much do I have to give, but now I’m just like, just being a decent human being and your regular life goes a long, long way. And these people we’ve connected with three or four times a year, we’ll have big parties at our house and just invite all my customers and my wife’s friends and different people from the neighborhood over and just, you know, have a chili feed or have this or that and it’s just incredible that people will be walking around living room. So how do you know Cory and Lisa, talking to each other and ask them questions like, wow, we have either been planted here by somebody else, or we have just dropped into this neighborhood and have started to make a difference in the lives of people in our community. And word is getting around the other day. My wife posted I was doing some work on her own house and she posted a picture of me doing the work on her Facebook feed and someone that’s never met either one of us, but who is in the community and is fairly well known. So as you guys are the new power couple. We’re sure glad to have you. Yes, smile. I was like, I don’t know that. We’re Anything special, but it’s good to see that we’re actually making an impact.

Brandon Handley 41:04
That’s great. And I mean, does it feel nice that you’re kind of making this impact without having to feel this extra pressure to do so?

Cory Walker 41:11
Yeah, totally effect is another friend of mine asked the same question a couple days ago. Is it great to be pastor Corey, it’s great to be Cory and still have pastor Corey and I said absolutely candidate, just so much less pressure and, and not having to pour your resources and time and effort into an organization which may or may not be promoting the things that you believe gives you the time and resources to pour into the people that you come across on a daily basis. We were able to help a single mother who was in terrible needy situation a few weeks ago, and we had the money to do it because we weren’t giving 10% of our income to an organization every every week when we got paid, you know, and and for those who believe that that’s what they’re supposed to do. That’s great. I did it for years and it worked for me then but it no longer does. And now I now I look for opportunities to give To help and to be a decent human being to everybody around So,

Brandon Handley 42:04
right, right, I mean, not just not just to the church, right? Yeah, just one specific organization. It’s another, you know, again, you know, I’ve got a buddy who’s a Buddhist Reverend, and he talks a lot to being able to give charity with wisdom, right? And not just not just do it kind of blindly. And yeah, just kind of give away everything just because, but do it with with a sense of wisdom and a sense of knowing that, you know, what you’re giving to is, is from your heart, not just because back to your point to just check a box, right? So, I love that. So, you know, I’m just kind of chuckling to myself, but you know, you know, let’s, let’s say that, let’s say that you’re creating a church. What would that look like to you? Right? What would it be, you know, if you were to spin off, out of all these other thousands of different organizations You know, and maybe you feel like you’ve been touched in a way that maybe some other people hadn’t been? How would you do differently?

Cory Walker 43:08
Well, great question, in fact, is we’ve asked my wife and I’ve asked ourselves this question many times, because one of the things we did not want to do when we left organized Christianity was just to go create a slightly different version of it, that we thought was a little bit better. We just kind of want to set the whole thing aside and try to live out our faith on a daily basis. That being said, you know, when you get up and speak to people on a weekly basis, or maybe multiple times a week for a half your life and then you stop doing it and the largest group to speak to might be three to five people. And that would be on a rare occasion. There’s always an itch that wants to be scratched, to get up and speak to people again. I’ve toyed with potential for some motivational speaking or maybe even a little bit of stand up on occasion, a local club, one of the local clubs turns out just because I have a gift of gab and I enjoy using it but If I were to create something that looked like a church, it would probably just be more like something where we got together on a monthly basis to just swap stories about what was going on in our lives and the good things that we saw taking place. And maybe, you know, 10 or 15 minutes worth of positive, encouraging instruction, towards just being a better human being, that would be the most organized I’d ever want it to be. I’m not renting or owning a facility or you know how to take up an offering or anybody getting a salary from design or anything like that. Just Just humans who consider themselves part of the same community gathering together to recognize that there’s divine presence in our life. And when we follow it, good things happen for us and the people that were around,

Unknown Speaker 44:47
nice, all of that. So

Brandon Handley 44:50
if somebody out there is feeling this kind of divine pull to break away from a life that they’ve always known, you know, how would you How would you want What would you say to that person? How would you help them through that? Right?

Cory Walker 45:03
I’d say give me a call.

Cory Walker 45:06
Actually, my website has a place where you can connect with me if you’re gonna if you’re on that journey, because you’re going to feel alone. And if you just Google non traditional Christian, you’ll get a bunch of stuff that comes up. But none of us really dealt with how to transition out of organizational Christianity at all, was more like, you know, trendy type churches where they have smoke machines and stuff like that, you know, or rock and roll music or whatever, you know, wasn’t really more along the lines of, Hey, I don’t really want to sit in a church on Sunday mornings anymore. And it, you know, I guess, effect is I have several friends who are life coaches, and I’ve done a little bit of myself and I thought on a couple occasions, maybe down the road, what I need to do is make myself available as a spiritual coach to people who are transitioning away from traditional forms of a face into more of a daily applicational living and just Help them walk the journey as someone who’s just maybe a step or two ahead of them down the path somewhere path.

Unknown Speaker 46:05
Yeah, no, I

Brandon Handley 46:06
love that. Right. Listen, as you said earlier, we don’t know how this thing ends, right? We don’t know what’s on the other side. But what we do know is that today, if we’re living in accordance to living from our heart, if we’re doing what we feel is as good as it can be, you know, then every day you can theoretically you could be in heaven, right? Every day you can live a life that is giving and is the spiritual way. But there could be someone who doesn’t know what it means to live life as worship right. My niggas got something you were saying earlier right? live every day so it was the you know, the Lord say and again, you know, listen, I think that there’s bristles right like, you know, from for people, you say, God, they’re like, Oh, no,

Cory Walker 46:56
there goes yeah.

Cory Walker 46:58
loaded, loaded term. But for

Brandon Handley 47:00
even for me, right, I still I still toy with it mentally. You know, when I write the word God, I do little g just because I, I it’s just, it’s just the whole concept, right there’s there’s a wall in my mind with big G, right, but there’s no wall in my mind with universal or creative energies, all these other things, these are all ones that are free flowing, that mean the same thing.

Unknown Speaker 47:26
Right? To me.

Brandon Handley 47:28
And it’s easier for me to accept it right. So I think that you know, just just just as with you, like, if somebody were on this path, and they were coming out of a traditional church that would be easy for them to gravitate towards you, right? Because you’re got that experience. Whereas like, if it was somebody who’s coming onto this path that was just kind of coming onto this path. That wasn’t such a big g kind of guy, right? Then it might be somebody like me, right, where he’s like, Listen, we’re going to talk in Universal we’re going to talk all these other things, but

Cory Walker 47:56
yeah,

Brandon Handley 47:58
I love I love what you’re doing. There. That I think that that’s, you know, wonderful because they need that right. And here’s, here’s one of the things that I was saying too is is of with, with your, with the Bible with a faith with religion, it’s kind of like a framework for the space that you’ve gotten into is that you know, how, what is your What is your concept or idea that like as as it being the framework, not necessarily the whole building and structure and everything that it needs to be.

Cory Walker 48:29
Yeah, that’s a good way that’s a good way to look at it. I think it’s the skeletal structure and you put the meat in the bones on after the fact you know, it’s not the bumps and beaten in the skin on after the fact you get to build out your faith in the way that you that you can feel good about. Now, I’ve never believed spirituality was just all about feeling good. But the bottom line is, you need to be able I need to be able to live in a way that’s congruent with what I believe and if my beliefs are such that they’re preventing me from Living honestly, with my heart, then I’m just not in a very good place. And so, you know, I think religion is a good place and, and traditional forms of religion are a good place for to give structure for people who feel like they just be lost out there on their own if they didn’t have, you know, some guidance or some set of this or that, to help them down the path. And and I respect that. And one of the things that we believe over lifetime believe when we first stepped out of out of traditional Christianity was that it’s every individual’s responsibility and privilege to figure out what their faith is supposed to look like for them, instead of telling someone Well, you shouldn’t go to church, you know, I’m going to say, Hey, if you’re finding benefit in that, and I think my book reflected that in a couple ways, if you’re, if you’re finding benefit and being a part of an ongoing church, then then do so but if it’s not long, it’s no longer working for you. Don’t be afraid to step away and I just felt like that makes a lot more sense. than the one size fits all, you know, hey, let’s all jennea flex every Sunday or let’s all take communion on the first Monday, first Sunday of the month, or let’s all do this.

Cory Walker 50:10
To me, it just wasn’t it wasn’t working anymore.

Brandon Handley 50:12
Now I get it. I get it. Do you see yourself ever going back into it?

Cory Walker 50:16
Yeah, you know, my best friend. His name’s Jeremy. I think you’ve met him before. But he says. He says, Don’t you wish we could just go back to being good Methodist. Now neither one of us have been. Neither one of us have ever been Methodist. But the sentiment is Wouldn’t it be so much easier not to ask the deeper questions and to follow your heart and just do what you’re told. Just to show up once a once a month or twice a month and show some change in the offering and feel good about checking the boxes. Sure, when neither of us. Neither my wife or I really feel like we could ever take that journey back. There may be some phenomenal church out there that teaches the love of Christ and the grace of Christ without all the shoulds and this open to anybody who wants to come that we just haven’t discussed Get but certainly in our region. To my knowledge, it doesn’t exist. And know, if it does, I’ll ask, I’ll ask the divine Lord of the universe to bring it and drop it in my lap. So that all is there. And it does and I’ll be happy to walk through the door

Brandon Handley 51:15
a little bit. What um, you know, I was like trying to find out some different books or whatnot, you said you went through like 66 books as you were kind of gone through going through, you know, the, the E reading phase, what are what are some that like a really kind of revolutionized your way of thinking as it comes all this stuff?

Cory Walker 51:36
Well, you know, if you’re coming at it from a Christian standpoint, there’s couple good books, one of them’s called organic church. I can’t think of the author right now that is well known. And it just talks about some of the stuff I’ve talked about here today, about how it’s supposed to be an organism that’s supposed to grow on its own. And it’s supposed to be a living, breathing thing that’s made up of people not organ organization. The other one was called patient Christianity, it was a great book. And it talks, it traces all the doctrines that we hold dear today, back to in many cases, their pagan roots and the sense that they’re not, not of God, if you will, not biblical roots, but just traditional roots that go to different different types of belief systems all over the world. And so don’t get so hung up on whether something is biblical or not, you know, because most of what we do in our Sunday morning services isn’t from the Bible, it’s just things that are developed over 2000 years worth of religion so but you know, on the non Christian, if you will side outside of the mainstream, I really love the books like the Four Agreements and, you know, books that just, you know, I’m reading a lot of stuff. Like recently we’ve been rereading for third or fourth time then Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey. You know, just a lot of the lot of the stuff that for years in church, we were told not to read because you’re supposed to read Christian stuff, but yet every time I read the stuff that’s not Christian stuff, because by training of my upbringing, I’m seeing all the biblical truth that’s present in the non Christian stuff. Show goes goes back to that the divine wanting us to have truth bad enough, he’s willing to put it wherever he has to, in order to get it into our hands.

Brandon Handley 53:13
Right. I mean, that’s the whole, you know, cast it was a casting pearls before the swine, right? Like, I’m not saying that though, there’s always going to be this wine that doesn’t understand or appreciate the pearl. Right, versus you know, somebody else is looking for those exceptional pieces wherever they go. Yeah, that’s kind of, you know, so I’m hearing a little bit. So I’m curious there too. You know, I would hear stories about like paganism and the story of the cross in Christianity. I’m curious, did the pagan Christianity book did it talk to that at all?

Cory Walker 53:45
Well, the cross it didn’t specifically mention the cross. But we do know from historical documents that the cross was the form of capital punishment that you know, the Romans Jews and the Romans were occupying Israel at the time so Jesus would have died on a cross Because of, because that’s the way that they killed people back then. So that, that, that from what we can tell is accurate, but there’s just so many like even, you know, many of the end just things are so interwoven together and we don’t even recognize it. And I’m just going off of memory. But like even the you know, like today when we give toasts, maybe at a wedding or at a party, and someone raises their cup and gives a toast to somebody, it’s traced back to Communion within Christianity, where Jesus took the cup and said, This is my body is broken for you, as often, you know, drink this as often as you as often as you drink this, remember me. And so a lot of the things that are interwoven throughout our, throughout our culture in our society, can can come from some Christian stuff, and then a lot of the things that we have in Christianity came right out of very non Christian, what we would call pagan societal practices, just as a result of you know, having As the message of Christ spread throughout the world, it would be in and spread into different cultures than it was originally brought to. And result, different things would be adopted. And so that is a great little book called pagan Christianity. And it’s a, it’s a good read. So

Brandon Handley 55:16
thanks for sharing that. And like you’re saying, it’s really interesting to see where something starts and where it ends up. Right? How did it start? And where is it showing up in different spaces in our lives? So thank you. Thanks, man. You know, I think it’s been a lot of fun. I think I really definitely enjoyed kind of going through. For me, Pentecostal stuff was really kind of eye opening, sharing those gifts was also something to me that I wasn’t aware of. Right. So I think that there’s definitely stuff within, you know, Christianity within the scriptures that can really speak and rang true to some people are afraid to go into because of the organizational stuff because of some of the horror stories because of like, you know, you know, like, just your, they don’t want to go in and check off all these boxes, but they do. Do want, they do want to feel, quote unquote closer to God. Right.

Unknown Speaker 56:04
Yeah, totally. And and so, you know,

Brandon Handley 56:08
I think that that’s available to anyone like you’re saying, just kind of go out and seek it for yourself right and see, can you sell fine, right? Whatever. Whatever whatever you’re seeking is seeking you all that jazz. But Corey, thank you so much again for hopping on today. Where should I send somebody who’s going to come? Look for Corey Walker,

Cory Walker 56:29
probably the easiest way is to go through my website and that’s church Been there, done that calm, church, been there done that calm. And while I certainly still believe in the church, I just believe it’s who we are. A church attendance is something I no longer do. So that’s why we named a website that the web the book is available for free download there. And there’s ways to contact me through there if you’re wanting to just somebody to talk to or if you’re wanting to develop an ongoing friendship or relationship you know, that’s the joy of the internet. Now we can find people, even though we may be in the minority We can find people from all over the world that we can connect with who are thinking and feeling the same things.

Unknown Speaker 57:06
Now 100% So, let’s say you started Coreys spiritual coaching today what what Who do you feel like would be your ideal client?

Cory Walker 57:18
Um, you know, people who definitely people who grew up in the Christian faith, but who are seeking who seeks to find benefit in it and or they just can’t, they can’t live with some of the inconsistency is that they’re finding and the faith and instead of getting dumping God all together, if you will, they can find an alternative way to express their fate without having to have the religious aspect of it. That’s probably my ideal

Unknown Speaker 57:45
client. Awesome. Well, guys, if that’s you reach out to Cory.

Cory Walker 57:50
Thanks, Cory. thank thank you so much. Have a good day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai


When you are going through an awakening, sometimes it can feel like everything is going off the rails!

That’s how it was with me, and I was lucky enough to come across an amazing spiritual life coach, Christian Wiese.

Ever since Christian helped me along the way, we have been in communication.

Take a listen to find out how you may be able to practically apply spiritual wisdom, even if you are in the midst of a very high-level financial group!

Connect with Christian on Facebook

Also, should you be interested in his books check them out here:

https://christianmwiese.com/

Brandon Handley 0:00

Two, one. Hey there spiritual dope. Brandon Handley here today. And as we continue to explore how we can apply spirituality in our everyday lives, businesses, and whatever it is we want to do. I have with me today, author and spiritual coach, my good friend, Christian M. Weiss, and he is a, he’s an author, spiritual coach. But he didn’t he wasn’t always in the space. In 2008, he was working in the professional finance field, with a PhD in finance and as a freshly minted dad. And working in this market. He’d been introduced to a wonderful world of magic, healing and love. And he finally left the financial industry and decided to work today as an author, educator, a spiritual life coach, and he’s on a mission to share the gospel of the capitalized way and to help other spiritual Travelers awaken to their path. Christian, thank you so much for joining us today.

Christian Wiese 1:05

Thank you for having me. Being here.

Brandon Handley 1:08

Yes, yeah, well, so first, you know, here’s people people may not have followed me since the beginning and that’s okay. So if you’re just tuning into any of my podcasts for the first time, Christian I first met years ago now, when I was doing a podcast called fatherhood for the rest of us and I had reached out to fathers who had experience and kind of a spiritual awakening and Christian is the only one who raised his hand. He has lived to tell the tale so before and thank you for that. And we’ve had I think, a great friendship since then we actually had to meet in person last year. That was a very What do they call that? You know, synchronous, synchronous synchronicity

Christian Wiese 1:52

secret? Thanks, Jerry. Yeah, for sure.

Brandon Handley 1:54

Yeah, yeah, we that was just so random how that happened. And to me that just showed the universe opening up, right?

Unknown Speaker 2:02

That’s right. Um,

Brandon Handley 2:04

what I like to start this off with Christian as a little bit of how you and I are conduits for creative energy, right? That’s right. And you and I are talking to share a message with somebody who’s listening to the podcast today. What What do you think that that person needs to hear today?

Christian Wiese 2:26

Well, I think the main message is life is fun. There’s so much creativity in life. And we spent so much time thinking about it and thinking what we want and what we should get, and we sometimes overlook what we have and what we’re getting every day and excitement and I think so again, just a little bit of background. I kind of have always been interested in spirituality. But I was in the middle of my career, the two boys had just been born. Suddenly there was that moment, which you also experienced, where suddenly you said, Wow, what’s happening here in this incredible app to tell other people about it. And then I literally spent seven years doing both very similar what you’re doing right now, in the day, kind of hanging out with some very smart people in the financial industry and kind of testing my spiritual theories. And then that night writing about it and writing books, and we’re talking today about the second book, which I think is is really written for people like you and your, your viewers, because it makes a case that spirituality is not some sort of philosophy that we practice on Sunday. Spirituality is something that we do everyday and also at work. And for seven years. I literally tested my theories and they work, we can really be incredibly creative, connected. We can have a lot of fun doing kind of spirituality and living.

Brandon Handley 4:05

Now 100% I love it. I enjoyed the book. And, you know, right when I read the review, I’d already started reading the book. But when I read the review on the back here of the endorsement by Carl Bozeman, and this book is intended to kind of pick up before you go to sleep and just have a quick read like small short stories, right? And, you know, here’s the book in my hand, thanks for shooting it over. Appreciate you sending. So the way of the Meister and it gives you some time to pause and reflect and also see how somebody such as yourself who had a PhD in it was it was at finance that she had a PhD in economics, economics. Oh my god, right. I mean, that’s the that’s the last place. Most people are going to be looking for a virtual coach. Right, or, or spiritual birthing at that, right? That’s

Christian Wiese 4:55

right. And that often happens and I think it’s really important to stress it. We always say, if you are spiritual, be on the right or be on the left, whatever your favorite direction is. But often in life, instead of being on the right, we’re actually on the left. And it’s extreme contrast between the two that then gets you that, that breaks through. And that’s, I think, by work in the conflicts at work in the context of family and all that. It’s sometimes an opportunity to opportunity to stop and say, Hey, what’s going on here? What can I learn from this conflict? And the way I would put economics, economics is a science of scarcity. scarcity, the main assumption is you don’t have but you want the only one right Right, right. Increase your utility and your income as your poor. Yes, the main message of spirituality is abundance. We live in an abundant world. We deserve to live in a world and that I think we need spiritual life coaches like you to remind us of that premise and we should work towards it

Brandon Handley 6:10

was like, it’s like you said, Christian when you when you stop to look at what you have versus what’s missing. That’s right, right is doo doo doo. I feel like there’s a space for an economic approach that says, hey, we actually have quite a bit Do you think I mean, I mean so look, let’s not laugh too hard at this because we had, you know the Science of Happiness to psychology. You know, so, which was laughed out at the beginning, right? I’m reminded of I’ve listened to this guy, Robin. Oh, gosh, his last name Sharma. Right. And one of his lines is they laughed at all the great ones at first, right. So is there do you feel like is that would could we apply economy you know economics to an abundant sides. Cuz like you said, we’ve been focused so much on the scarcity economy. Is there an abundance economy?

Christian Wiese 7:08

Absolutely. Economics just needs a rebranding, which is

Unknown Speaker 7:13

exactly right.

Christian Wiese 7:14

I mean, we should call it the science of abundance. And there’s a joke that I was told whether, whether it’s supposedly true at all, no. But somebody taught at Harvard, and gave the idea of to the utility function and the income line and that it keeps growing and expanding to the right. And that is kind of our mission in life. And there was one guy from the Middle East, supposedly a crown prince. And he said, I’m what happens to the picture, if you don’t have any income constraints. And of course, everybody laughed. You know, he was a prince, he had limitless resources, but it’s actually a very good point is in economics, that certain bliss point where you’re having more income is not the issue at all. It’s about having more meaning. And I do think, to a large extent, the spiritual journey is just about awakening to what you truly want. You know, we initially think it’s so much about wealth and status and reputation. And then we realized, no, no, it’s about love. It’s about meaning. It’s about the ability to create an Express. And when you go down that path, it’s very easy to be very fulfilled and happy, abundant life.

Brandon Handley 8:30

It is, is once you learn about it.

Christian Wiese 8:37

That’s right.

Brandon Handley 8:38

Right. So, you know, it’s really interesting. My wife just quit her job after being there for 23 years. And she’s terrified because she was taught to go get a job and work and stay there for for your entire life. And that was the idea. And since she married me that was her own fault. The You know what? learning this stuff that like, wow, we, you know, you always hear about you know, don’t put your don’t put your ladder up against the wrong wall. That’s right, right you know, we we worked for money, right and income versus working for or towards meaning or towards a beautiful life right? You know, we want we want the things we want the experiences we want I love this bliss point that you bring up. But it’s once you’ve learned that prod and nine then you have to learn how to apply it, which is what you know, I think I’ve done taking the concept and applied it in life and found it to be true. You know, I think of one of your stories in the book. And actually kind of I was actually telling the story last night at dinner about how you would come up with theories that seemed like they would be sure shots let’s talk a little bit about like, you know, working in the economy and you’re working for I’m guessing people that had a lot of money and they trusted you, with your, you know, with your doctorate in this field to explore and give sounds strategies, right. So tell us a little bit about, like, what that looked like and what some of the outcomes were.

Christian Wiese 10:17

Um, so when I started out I was actually very similar to your vise Korea. I was there for I think, 22 years. I’m originally from Germany, I arrived in 1990. I went to Brown University, got my PhD there. And then literally, just after five years, moved one hour north to Boston from Providence to Boston and started out there. And I started out as an economist, you know, I had to learn, you know what finance is really all about. But, you know, after a while, I got the hang of it, and you can realize that finance to a large extent, yes, it’s about knowing what will happen tomorrow. Extensive thoughts about psychology, human psychology, and I love that stuff. You know the the being in the pressure point and people say no, you have it all wrong. Now’s the time to be actually that this year was perfect. Everybody said run for the hills run for the hills. And the moment they did that was exactly the moment that the Gnostics started taking off, right? It’s all it’s all psychology and you have to get a feel for it. So what in the end brought the, the the spark when you kind of awoke to something different? I can’t tell. But what I can tell is that I had a very interesting psychological journey they had that place because part of the process of you know, doing this kind of spirituality for a few years is to realize that we kind of live in our head. You know, there are certain stories that we want to be nice to each other. We want to be loved. You’re going to get, and there’s a lot of heads, the art sometimes says something very different. And what I enjoyed in the pressure cooker environment is to kind of test and also learn. And I kind of went into two directions. And I think they’re very powerful. And I think you as a coach really can breakfast that there was one this spiritual dimension where I learned cooperation and trust is so powerful if you work with a group of people and you guys trust each other. magic happens, but also learned and there was a second aspect something about myself, I had not understood how competitive I really was. And you know, we spreadsheet people will tell us Oh, we are so nice and so relaxed. But when tell people to tell you, you’re full of it, you suddenly get you know, I’ll show you and that’s a very human reaction and I love isn’t playing with both balls on the one hand showing the magic of connection tivity and caring for each other as I put it, but on the other end, also realizing, you know what, you’re telling yourself stories, you’re as human as everybody else. And I think that’s really the the the potency of a coach to help people with that struggle because we shouldn’t live in lala land, we should live in the real world, where not everything is about love. And you know, and being so serene and uncaring.

Brandon Handley 13:29

Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, that’s it. That’s a you know, that’s, that’s great. And it’s an ideal it kind of world and I don’t think that it’s, I wouldn’t say that it’s impossible, but the likelihood of seeing it, and then would you really want to live it? That’s another question like, yeah, that’s, that’s another question. And I’m reminded of, you know, at least hearing this kind of first from Alan Watts, right. It’s kind of like stew you got to season it just enough. There’s got to be enough, you know, kind of flavor and Taste where it’s not so bland. So if we have all this, you know, love peace and serenity all the time, it’s gonna be real boring. I’m sorry, right? We’re not gonna, we’re not going to be able to experience we’re not going to even notice if we have an upper down, right? I mean, you know, I’m not saying hey, let’s invite some drama. But if you don’t have any drama, you will go to your head and you will create some it’s just human. So you know, I love that you said that because that that is the true premise two is spiritual dope, right. So this is the this program this podcast and courseware whatever gets created out of this is like, it’s not all it is a huge percentage of peace, love and light, but there’s also some, you know, we’ve got to go through some. We’ve got to go through some seasons of our lives to have a fully rounded experience. That’s right, right.

Christian Wiese 15:02

And something. So the way optimized, I think is perfect for this setup, because I think it speaks to the experience that many people go through. Should I be in this profession? Should I not? Am I really expressing myself creatively as I should? On the other hand, there are financial constraints. Can I really make it right now on my own? Or should I also have, you know, a secure income stream? Those are all issues we have to deal with. But the person

Brandon Handley 15:28

just has to pick that apart for right now. Right? Yeah. For everybody who’s who’s chased the secure income stream and the secure way of life. I think that COVID has been a true disrupter in continuing along that, that path, right. That’s right. And, and also, I kind of want to just loop back to when you were, you know, understanding, you know, yes, the cooperative and trust support, right, you know, your groups and creating that and finding that also understanding your competitiveness, but you also have illustrated how you you come up with some theories that will seem bulletproof. Write that on paper, and in theory should be working and they would flop and then you would say, all right, well, here’s, here’s something that I’m going to throw out there. I don’t think much of it. And that’s the one that takes off. Right? Play with me really this then right? So I’ll play let’s play. Let’s play like kind of spiritual devil devil’s advocate type. Okay. So with the one you had these great expectations, you were kind of attached to an expectation of the one that you thought would work right there was pressure on it to work in the way that you thought that it was supposed to work. And so there was there was like a focus on it. Versus the one that you came up with great. I would say almost ease and you let it go. And you said you know what, fine, let it go. Let’s Let’s the worst that could happen. Right. And that’s the one that you did with ease that it came in and flowed. Yes. Or to see it that way.

Christian Wiese 17:08

I think it’s a very important point. Actually, that was the direction I wanted to go in my original comment. The main message is, and it’s a very tough one, because we have been programmed for four decades in the education system to do exactly the opposite. But the main message of spirituality is, get out of your head. Look at what lie and look at the amazing abundance that life has to offer. And especially when it goes in a direction that you didn’t anticipate. That’s the time to be excited, because you can actually learn something. Right? And that was really my spiritual experience, experience and breakthrough to realize this is just a voice. It is not us. It’s just a voice. Sometimes it has something interesting to say sometimes not. But there’s an authority for you. On the voice in the head and that is all to spirituality.

Brandon Handley 18:03

Now fair enough. One second Chris, I’m gonna go ask my kids to go move. So the letting go right and getting out of your way. And the aspect of of us trying to apply direction, right? mentally, mentally direction versus Heart, heart feel it feeling it forward, right? That’s right, feeling it forward. Well, all right. How do you do that?

Christian Wiese 18:36

Well, that’s really exciting stuff happens it is we are not independent of our life. The life that we experience the people we bump into, I mean, I am always messenger it’s just so apparent. person one context me person to contact me five minutes later, person one and person two are in my life connected. So I see Just even though they have no idea what’s going on, I can literally see the strings. Right. So with those modern technologies, we actually can see almost how life operates. Yeah.

Brandon Handley 19:11

Yeah, yeah,

Christian Wiese 19:12

I think that’s a great thing too, that that gets you out of the head. And but again, I would say is always know on which level you work. Because I think you and I do. We do different things to work as a spiritual life coach, you help people with their career choices with their personal choices, right. The next level that I’m interested in this kind of what is that no self experience. There is no self, it’s just your part of life. You are there no thoughts, just the no self. I mean, that’s what the you know, well, the gurus talk about it’s an exciting, almost philosophy or experience, but it doesn’t help so much. The guy who has those has just two newborn children and has a little make a living. Right? That’s where you come in. Sure. Yeah, you know, it’s such a challenge to

Brandon Handley 20:09

fall into this space, I guess it’s kind of the best way to say it to to, to open once you’ve opened up to the spiritual self, right? Or the your spirituality, your spiritual being. How do you reconcile that? Right? How do you integrate that? And that’s, that’s a huge challenge.

Christian Wiese 20:28

It’s a challenge, but it’s also a huge opportunity because

Brandon Handley 20:31

so much for sure, listen to your your speaking a new language, you’re learning a whole new way of being. So you cannot. So it’s kind of like the Buddha and the and the, you know, the Rosebud, right, flower bud, you can’t squeeze that right. It’s expected to bloom so you got to you’ve got to nurture it, understand it and follow it. You know, I still remember when people were telling me you got to trust in the process before I had ever experienced the process. Right? So there’s trust in the process, which is kind of a faith in this, this possible way of being that you, you simply you can’t convey it in

Christian Wiese 21:17

words. That’s right. You cannot write but what we can convey is how much fun it is. That synchronicity is something that we discussed in our last talk, right? I think you are also an experiencer Can you pronounce it Suresh polities scientists, so it’s either the numbers or just the human connections. And the the first experience is so much fun, you understand it to gain it’s no longer the, you know, it’s it’s all about life or death. It’s literally again, you making a mistake, and you hear somebody laughing in the background. Ha ha ha you messed this one up.

Get ready not that serious,

Brandon Handley 22:02

right? Well, you know, I, I poke fun at that too because the word light is in enlightenment. That’s right, right. So how can we come at this from a sense of it’s heavy, hard, steady work. But it’s also meant to kind of lighten the load, right?

Christian Wiese 22:24

We are creators. I mean, it just stink up an entrepreneur or the guy who inventing or an Albert Einstein every day when they got up, they were all smiles. I can’t wait to see what I create today. But I think that that experience, I think

Brandon Handley 22:40

that that’s a great, you know, how can somebody applied themselves in that manner? Today right now, regardless of you know, I’m in a nine to five, right? How do I apply that principle of I am a creator of Wherever I am, that might not

Christian Wiese 22:56

be the thing that you actually do, which hopefully gets your meaning but There’s also the interaction with the people, you know, very much like I described as my messenger experience, you suddenly bump into that person and the person says something which the person never says, exactly that kind of word that resonates with you, because you read it yesterday in a book, and you suddenly start and this is really important. I don’t know how. Yeah, this is the process. And it’s a lot of fun. And everybody can experience even in a in a workplace that they consider boring. It’s literally the lightest streaming in and you can experience it anywhere. But on the other hand, I understand sometimes you are forced in a new direction. And I give myself as an example, I actually had plans to be at a job until today 2020 because I’d always wanted to start with a friend, a meditation center and she just wasn’t ready. So For me, that jump came two years ahead of time because there were changes at work and it just didn’t work for me anymore. So suddenly a new situation comes and for a couple of years, I was a little bit bored. I have to say, Yes, I was writing books, and I was working with people, but there was always a feeling. You know, I wish I had three more hours of actual creative work to do because only so much spirituality I can do. But guess what, that was a very, very spiritual experience where I really went to the next level, understanding better about my own drive above my own cross patience above my own limits. And that’s part of life. You have to if you’re really interested in spirituality, and that’s where the life coach starts differing from the spiritual coach. The Life Coach job is to make sure that that person is successful in the way that they want. Creating love, whatever it is that they want versus friendship quotes gets a little arrogant says, Whatever happens to you, you will learn a lot. For sure it’s you know, I don’t know, sometimes you have to build something and then afterwards you can have that arrogant perspective. Do you understand which direction I’m going?

Unknown Speaker 25:21

Now go ahead and give me a little more on that.

Christian Wiese 25:23

Okay, so I just saw the psychologist, the young cago stuff young, I think put it very well. He says the first half of our life journey, we develop the self.

The second half, you actually

Brandon Handley 25:40

had I had that I actually had that one.

Christian Wiese 25:42

I had that as a quote. And in the second half of the life journey, we start letting go, right. So as the Buddha which puts it over everybody else, but if you die before you die, felt kind of disappears. This integrates,

Brandon Handley 25:58

right yeah, not lost. Uh, you know, I never, you know, I’ve definitely always said, This ease but I’d never done this integrate. Right. Which, you know, right yeah, that explains kind of a lot.

Christian Wiese 26:19

Well, I feel bad it was like so let’s take the example of when you bump into your colleague when that person says what she never says just out of the blue uses a ratchet she never used the point it’s exactly the birth if you just read in that meaningful book at night, right? everything for you stops right just stared her. There are no thoughts. There is just that feeling of I can’t wait to see where this is. This is going. So you see this is just an example of the self disintegrate the the knowledge that everybody talks about. You’re so excited to be in the moment that innocence us Then, as an identity kind of get integrated into colleagues in the story in what’s about to come. That’s really the kind of, you know, living now. So it’s not that you as a person disappeared, it’s just that you literally just become out of it

Brandon Handley 27:16

when you become kind of the observer. Is that what you’re saying? Yeah, you kind of

Christian Wiese 27:21

the actor, the everything.

Brandon Handley 27:24

And you’re seeing all that at the same time. You’re seeing it all at the same time. Is that what you’re saying? That’s

Christian Wiese 27:28

right. Yeah. And many people have thought experiences, it’s just they never put in a spiritual meaning to answer just say, Wow, that was Mind blown. Yeah, sure. Sure.

Brandon Handley 27:41

I think I think that that’s what you and or I or even religion provides is this kind of framework for when it does happen? That’s right. Right. So because there’s going to be this whole building of the ego to Carl Jung talking about that you’re talking about there where you’re going Go your whole life and it’s gonna seem to fit everybody else’s expectations, patterns, societal norms, but then there’s going to be this threshold that you cross over, where you disintegrate with that identity of the self and you recognize the connectedness. That’s right to everything. That’s right. And if you don’t know, this is where I think this is where I’m gonna play big is there’s a bunch of over 33 million in the United States, right? last census not this last one. They don’t claim any religion, right? So they don’t have a framework for when this happens to them. That’s right. So it’s like, hey, it’s okay. That’s right. let’s let’s let’s a let’s figure out kind of, what’s your what’s your what’s your background? And let’s, let’s steer you to a couple stories that reflect exactly where you are. Right.

Christian Wiese 28:52

Yeah, but more than that, if I could add on that, because I really think it’s important for people like you and I and your viewers. Think of that. See? You that was brainwashed by his father mother to be somebody, you know, go to Harvard. Yeah, buddy, no be member of that golf club or whatever it is. And then you meet all those competitive people and you just put all your identity and building profits. And then there comes that moment and God forbid anybody, if it happens to anybody, but let’s say the daughter certainly gets cancer. Can you just suddenly say, Whoa, I couldn’t care less what the profit statement is, I need to make sure that my daughter is okay and that she gets healthy again, so that those life changing moments, but he didn’t say, well, it’s no longer about profit, but what is it about? And that I think is the opportunity to really have the people in the important places, CEOs, the upper management, the inventors creators, that they have that guidance of You know, moving towards a new model? Yeah. And I think if we if we get a few of those people, amazing change.

Brandon Handley 30:08

What’s your what’s your vision of a new model?

Christian Wiese 30:11

quantum new model is just the understanding that the economic model of scarcity is gone. That we live in a world of abundance that everybody has to find it and that’s a spiritual journey because we have to start overriding the voices of our parents, the voices of society, the voices of our spouse, tables, Rosa, that’s amazing thing. It’s not an any spiritual folks always say us versus them. It’s not true, or the unconscious person if it wasn’t for the unconscious person.

It’s not true, right?

Brandon Handley 30:45

We have growing Why is that not true? Let’s Let’s hit on. Why is that not true?

Christian Wiese 30:49

Well, it can be true in the sense that people get so annoying that we just say I have to leave. And then they’re part of the process, but often, it is our own. As I said to you, my spiritual experience was for the last two years where I didn’t have as much to do as, as I used to when I did exactly what you were doing having my nine to five job and then at night, you know, working streamer hours to get my books out, I suddenly realize you know, there is an inner void that I had to face. And yes, I was so cool at my work and I was so cool as a life coach and so cool in my writing, but you know what that coolness means something to me. And that’s not I don’t want people to project to me that’s, that’s not it. I have to find a way to to to face it in a void and of course the underdog it’ll say meditation. You go invert, you discover the light within. The first part of the journey is we see the light without the second part of the journey is we discover the light within minutes. It’s really not rocket science. So without It happens to everyone.

Brandon Handley 32:01

Well, you know, and but but it you know, it’s still again, I think until you begin the journey until you kind of start to experience. It’s not part of your peripheral, right? It’s not it’s not, it’s not something that you’re willing to accept. Yeah, that’s right. I, you know, like I said to you earlier, I’m working on my, on some of my information, right? For kind of describing, because it’s, this is a I’m building it as I go. But what does it say? I said, you know, spirituality. So this, you know, look, I’m, I’m talking to my generation, right? Mm hmm. But also, spirituality for the person that couldn’t give a shit about it until now.

Unknown Speaker 32:46

Right, because,

Brandon Handley 32:48

until you until until you have had an experience, you’re not going to be triggered to seek more and seek harder because you have had That experience.

Christian Wiese 33:01

I think those people are incredibly powerful and incredibly potent, because I do see a little problem as those very spiritual guys. Again live in their own head. Yeah, oh, you have to be a vegetarian. All you have to do all you have to do that, by the way, I am a vegetarian at moral grounds, but I eat a burger over the veggie burger. I do not feel any difference. However, on the moral ground, I’d say, yeah, it’s not nice what we do for our animals. But the thing is, if you just live in your you have to feel it. If you just live in your head, you will always play those us versus them games and they’re always different, us versus them never because the only insight of spirituality is we are all one. The critical voice that confronts us is us speaking to ourselves. We have to just find a way to either say I don’t want to deal with her right now going a different direction not to say There must be a way how we can integrate our views because we have one. Right,

Brandon Handley 34:08

right right now. And I love that. I think it was for me to work with a particular group where I understood about, you know, cooperation and trust and supporting each other. And just like you were saying earlier, I feel like that’s a place where, if you can’t be or don’t feel comfortable with being vocal about spirituality, you can apply spirituality. Would you say that that’s true?

Christian Wiese 34:38

And don’t talk about it, that the other mistake that the spiritual books say, they go out to the public and say, Oh, you just don’t know the power of communication, the power of connectivity, the power of caring, don’t say a word Just do it. Right. Because when you say something, the other person will say, Well, what a loony but the moment when you actually do it, The other person will take notice. And I do think there is incredible I mean, when it comes to the power of actually, I think it’s a course in miracles that says creation is communication, which I think in our modern world is incredibly important because in a sense, it’s all especially what you do. It’s all about communication, connectivity, creative, creativity, caring for each other. So I had in the book, the four C’s, as I called it, I think that that all applies for the modern society, especially the stuff that you’re doing. And if you start using the experiment, I’m not an ego. Let me see if I think that the other guy ain’t so bad. If I start with a premise, let me see what happened. In next day. The guy starts You know, taking the foreign advantages, okay, Soviet experiment wasn’t, wasn’t so successful. But in my experience, I did it for seven years. It worked like a charm. But it was a psychological experience. You felt the fear the other person felt the fear the getting together is a process. It doesn’t happen overnight. But when you start out with that process, let me experiment those very powerful themes. A you will be successful. But if you do it on a higher level, if a CEO start saying, you know what we are all, we all talk the talk, but we don’t walk the walk, right? We all say all we can take care of each other. But at the end of the day, whoever brings in the most money is the guy who gets promoted and whoever doesn’t bring in the most money as a problem, right? Well, that’s a very spiritual because it might be that this is support person, a blue guy who actually carries himself A team, right? But you only reward the guy who brings in the money. Sure. So if you really start with the premise, we are one unit. Let’s take care of each other. Let’s build something together. Let’s have an incentive structure that really rewards true connectivity and trusting each other. I do think operations can go very far. Because when you really believe in the in the company you’re working for you go out of your way to deliver when you think Well, my boss is just telling stories, and he doesn’t care for me at all. And the moment when things don’t go my way out the out of the door. You will not deliver the same goods that you do and I think it’s a very powerful

Brandon Handley 37:48

100% hundred percent like, you know, I just left one company not too long ago, and that was the feel you nothing ever felt safe and secure. Right? Not for For top performers or bottom performers, nobody. So how are you going to perform on a consistent basis in that environment? versus where I’m at now, um, similar environment of me similar similar type of work. But, you know, like I said, the, from the top down, they’re leading with spirituality, and they mean it. It’s very powerful. It’s also challenging to wrap my head around some of it, you know, because I’m just grown up with this other environment, right? So you’ve grown up in this other environment, you’re like, Okay, well, you’ve got to adapt and somewhat rapidly, but it seems like what is this? So just going through a new wardrobe right here, you gotta try on these.

Christian Wiese 38:47

For anybody who has been trained by the modern Western model. You know, tough guys finish first. nice guys finish last and similar statements. America, it shouldn’t happen. But the model that we are living, the Western society is living and the eastern guys are a little different. They’re smarter than us. They have, they have a little bit more of that idea of oneness. And the Europeans are somewhere in the middle. So I know a little bit about it, because at work, I was covering Japan, which is really at the other extreme of the, of the spectrum. I live. I’ve spent now most of my life in the US, but I grew up in Germany. So I actually felt that I experienced was all three models, Europe, somewhere in between the Americans very much about the individual, and the Asians, the Chinese, the Japanese kind of really believing in the power of one, right. Every model has its strengths and advantages. I guess if you play football, you should believe in the proper cause. If you play golf, you should you should believe in the power of the individual. But if you’re on a company, maybe some of the spiritual concept people make you a lot of money.

Brandon Handley 40:02

Yeah, no, no 100%. You know, just just again, going back to the point like when you show your teammates, you know, cooperation and you give them trust and you support them in, you know, give them some autonomy, right? Don’t micromanage price and value their inputs genuinely. It’s changes the whole dynamic.

Christian Wiese 40:29

They work from early in the morning until late at night if we need to produce something because they believe in, right?

Brandon Handley 40:38

Yeah. No, that’s true. That’s true. I wanted to hit you know, two more things here. The bliss point, you know, I think that’s an interesting concept and idea, what would you you know, what would you say that that is, is there a specific one, there’s definitely been numbers thrown about there. How can you tell that you are As your bliss point,

Christian Wiese 41:02

it’s very complicated, then I do think you sometimes need a coach like you for that. Because you shouldn’t short sell yourself. You shouldn’t say all text is not good for me. That’s what the book said, Oh, I shouldn’t be greedy and shouldn’t earn money. And I hate those capitalists who have that big house and right. No, that’s a lot of repression in debts knew it could be true for some, maybe there are some monks, but there’s a lot of repression. And I don’t think that’s spirituality at all. I think, again, going back to the young example, first you try to assert yourself, you say, I need a loving companion, I need a worker I can really express myself. I like because it’s and I like big cars and I like to have a motorcycle. I want to have those three things. And then you try to try for 10 years. 15 years, maybe After the changes, you know what? I now understand the trade off. Yes, I could earn money but it doesn’t give me meaning. Or maybe it’s the kind of well I earn a lot of money and it gives me so much meaning. We can’t say what happened to an individual, but everybody has to try to so the way I would put it is everybody has to create a garden, you know, the Garden of Eden, your own personal garden, and you figure out over the decades what it really is, that is important. We, of course, family men. I mean, to me, family is everything. No. But we both love creative expression and connecting with others.

Brandon Handley 42:39

Yeah, listen, I mean, that’s that for me is so huge, right? I you know, we you said, you know, so we’ve used the word creative and creativity so often through here, you know, I think a lot of people are under the mistaken impression that creativity can only be applied to painting or drawing or writing? Where else can it be applied from your from your perspective?

Christian Wiese 43:05

Well, I was at work, as I said, I started out as an economist, but then I realized if I just put out an economic forecast, people say very interesting, but how can I make money? And you know, then you say, Okay, well, how can I help them making money and then you go into the direction of well, it’s all psychology. As long as that line goes down, people are depressed, but the moment when it stops going down, that’s the moment when markets get exciting. So it was about psychology about getting appealed for short term forecasts and how it can, can use it. And the most wonderful transition happened over those 20 years. 10 years I spent as a scientist, right. And then 10 years I spent as an artist, because then certainly when I came to psychology, it’s but above feeling when it came to those lines that went up and down was literally taking the pencil thing I have a hunch that over the next couple of months, we will start seeing this. And I literally became an artist of have better pattern recognition is is as much an art as a science. And I immediately went into the artists position. So Can anybody be creative at Walmart? I don’t know. You know, sometimes we have to leave certain places. But Can everybody within that job description can find ways to connect more to be more creative to really express themselves? Absolutely. Because I lifted I learned about I needed a long time for that, I hope with your help other people that can do it faster. I literally needed 10 years. But it’s been a long time now, because I went from the left part of the brain to the right part of the brain. And you literally have to restructure your neurons to be to come out on the other side.

Brandon Handley 44:55

Now for sure, for sure. And I think Well, I think that with technology Today, not necessarily the, you know, compute power or any of these other things, but with the ability to listen to audios and go out and find what it is that is striking your chord. And you can go and you can do, you can build those neuron paths quickly. I pray, you can build this neuron pass quickly. So the others I asked about, like, you know, kind of, and I appreciate, you know, how you applied like the artistry to to your work and you became an artist in that space. But one of the, you know, you ended it with like, you know, the person at Walmart, can they be creative? Can they become an artist? I say yes, in the sense of, they create the experience. Right? You know, how do you create meaning in what it is that you do and the example that I use years ago, for me, was when I was banging around on Excel spreadsheets and press n Buttons every day as a man, all I do is I show it to work, I bang bang around on this machine, I press buttons, I say, what what are you really doing? And what am I really doing? And, you know, so for me, I was selling to a large service provider at that time. And I thought about the, the idea of what I was doing was enabling all the bits and zeros in like, everywhere that was happening because the work that I was doing was directly touching almost every bit of zero that you know, covered at least east coast. So, and, you know, I was like, well, who’s at the end of the end of that today? I’m creating relationships today I’m enabling, you know, these things. So, I would say, you know, for the person that is at Walmart, and if they can create a happy experience that they can help somebody locate, you know, maybe racquetball for whatever for that person’s dog. They’re creating an experience and so they are In essence creating, it’s your willingness to recognize your creative capacity.

Christian Wiese 47:06

That’s right. I have a beautiful story that I share in the upcoming book, which will come out maybe later this year, early next year. It’s called the daymaker. Did you hear that story? Now? Tell me about it. Okay, so there was a guy who was flying business class from Australia. And he was flying business class and he was sitting next to and you know, one of those very serious business type people and, and, and the guy said, so what do you do for a living? He said, Oh, I’m a daymaker. The guy looked at him as a daymaker. What are you okay, so it turns out, he was a hairdresser. But he said he had so much fun doing it and he had so much energy that, that he, you know, emitted in a sense he was doing He was making the day for people. And initially when you had to start this out a very interesting UI opinion of themselves, but then the start continues and says one day he was in this in a shop and a woman came one customer, she came two weeks ahead of schedule, it’s out. Can you speak to me in Excel? Absolutely. And he said on that day, they both had a lot of fun developing support, and he presumed that she had a special event that you had to go through. So you know, they spent an hour together and then she went off. And a week later, she got a he got a letter from her saying that on that day, she actually wanted to commit suicide, but she kind of wanted to look good. And by just hanging out with that guy and feeling his energy, and you know, she always liked him, he decided not to. So you know, that really gives meaning to the word daymaker. And I think very much like your spiritual experience to see ones and zeros. If we just if we just start To remind ourselves what kind of input we have, right? I think that already would be out of this point.

Brandon Handley 49:06

Yeah, yeah. No, I love that story because the impact that you’re having is so much greater than, than you’re giving yourself credit for. That’s right, right. That’s wrong. So well, you know, so you’ve got the two books, you’ve got the way of the Meister that’s out. You have the experience. Experiment. What’s the other one? Because a magnificent experiment, magnificent experiment. And now you’ve got another one coming out. Yeah. What’s up? Do you have a you have a working title yet?

Christian Wiese 49:34

Yeah, actually, we have a couple of books. So I mentioned my partner, we want to open a spiritual center and, and she has a mentor in Cape Town. And, and she has translated a book that deals with chick Gong. So the energy dynamics and we put out that that book because I think it really is addresses an area that that in our in our industry, I was almost tempted to say in our you know, in our profession is often overlooked the feelings of power feelings. So literally to understand the feelings that are going through it and having method of dealing with them. So that’s one very exciting book, The title is letting go release your suffering. Okay. The other book is a little bit more into the philosophical direction that I started to discuss here a little bit. It’s kind of what is religious state of no self, it’s really the ultimate freedom so that the title of the book is breaking free. So really the discussing the next step in the spiritual journey that happens to everyone, which is just in a sense, becoming part of a bigger oneness, which itself increasingly being, you know, out of the picture, which is really a lot of fun.

Brandon Handley 50:54

Right, right. I mean, once you remove yourself and you know, I talked about it without One of my first podcasts is kind of letting go and letting God

Christian Wiese 51:02

Right. Yeah. Right. Same idea. Right. Do you want to talk

Brandon Handley 51:08

about spiritual center at all? I just got coming up. How’s that looking for you? I think it’s super exciting for you. How’s it? How’s that? How’s that feel?

Christian Wiese 51:14

Yeah, so we got a little delayed with the COVID crisis, because, you know, meditation is all about hanging out with each other. We haven’t done anything. She sits in Washington, DC. So the hope is we start something in Washington, DC, but we will only get a reading on that next year. Okay. This is just about getting the book out and hopefully, we’ll build some momentum.

Brandon Handley 51:38

Awesome. I love it. I love it. So I think I think the book, both ones I’ve read, I’ve enjoyed and I think that they’ve helped me on my spiritual journey. They’ve helped me to, you know, see how you’ve gone through it right because others other Listen, people have gone through what you’re going through for any listener out there, right. So no matter what you think you’re going through Somebody has gone through this, you’re not the first you won’t be the last. That’s right. It is a it is a wonderful, crazy experience. But there are people like, you know, I can reach out to Christian if I’m going through something and just talk about it right? And he’s gone through it. A lot of the stuff that I’ve gone through or you’re very good at helping give me direction at least feel like hey, maybe not me, but maybe maybe go you know, look in this area, here’s, you know.

Unknown Speaker 52:27

And so

Brandon Handley 52:29

by reading your books, I can kind of see where my journey is going. And so I really enjoy that. So thank you for writing these books. Thanks you for sharing with with not just me, but with others, right? Your journey has been very, very helpful. Where should we send people to go kind of find you and get in contact with you?

Christian Wiese 52:47

No, I think the best way I mean, you can find me on Facebook, but otherwise, the best way is really my website. It’s w w w dot Christian and then my middle initial which is m which is also the maesteg And then my last name visa.com. And they can find everything access to the books and to the block and and also to somebody who wants to work with me my services. So that’s the best way of

Brandon Handley 53:15

awesome thanks for hanging out today.

Christian Wiese 53:16

Thank you so much for this

Jeremy Snowden

Brandon Handley 0:00
4321 Hey there podcast land thanks for tuning in. We are taking another hit a spiritual dope and today I’ve got Jeremy snowed and joining me He is a dad, a granddad friend and men’s mentor. He finds fulfillment being a resource a community connector. He runs a men’s growth and development group Hero’s Journey men’s online discussion circle, and host a biannual man’s three days meetup. He spends his free time discovering life hacks, physical movement and mindfulness practices. Jeremy, thanks for joining me today. What’s going on? What’s up?

Jeremy Snowden 0:38
What’s up? Thanks so much for the invitation, man. Yeah,

Brandon Handley 0:41
yeah, I don’t it was like, it was kind of like, it was a no brainer. You know, it was like, you know, we we’ve crossed paths, Facebook paths so many times, right. When I spun this up, I was like, you won’t point so just you’re kind of like a brother, brother from another mother right type of thing. Cuz, like, I think we’re the same people. Right. Right. And and and the more we have these conversations, the more we kind of find that that’s true. You and I were just talking before this about a mutual, you know, mentor that we found online. Eddie Bryant, right, who’s doing who’s doing some stuff. And you mentioned I just discovered on the week before, so I was like, this is just, yeah, it’s fun. It’s fun. And it’s funny. So before we even get started, man, so before we even get started, I feel like I feel like we’re kind of like, we’re conduits for the creative energies forces in the universe, right? Yeah. And we’re put together right now on this podcast, to speak to somebody. Right? And somebody needs to hear this, and it needs to come from you. What is it?

Unknown Speaker 1:51
Man?

Jeremy Snowden 1:52
Okay, so Wow, right on the spot, did you Okay, so

I think more than anything else

For me if I was if I was looking at the person that needs to hear this you are a human being not a human doing you know there’s more to you than you know that you’re at then you’re aware of

and just fully embody yourself No

I think that would be a good

Brandon Handley 2:24
I love it. I love it man right i mean you’re you’re you’re a human being not a human doing we get so caught up. Gosh, reactivity, right all the activity although RUN RUN, RUN doo doo doo I got to be productive man. If I’m not productive, they’re gonna kick me off the team.

Jeremy Snowden 2:42
Right? The pressure and the stress? Yeah,

Brandon Handley 2:45
yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So I love it. I love it. You’re a human being.

Unknown Speaker 2:51
And I think the other thing is,

Brandon Handley 2:53
knowing yourself right? And when you get into this kind of the spiritual realm and And you’re you’re getting into all these different involve with all these different groups. Excuse me. And these conversations, the word self can take on a number of connotations, right? Come on, what do you got? So tell me what you know. So, I’ll give you an example of something that I saw this morning. And it actually had to do kind of like Maslow’s law, right? hierarchy of needs. And when you get to the top there, it’s self expression, self actualization. Ah, true. So, I mean, you know, if I asked you what that meant to you to basically that’s the pinnacle, self expression, Self Realization, what does that mean? Right?

Jeremy Snowden 3:42
Wow, that’s deep. For me, I guess it is finding experiences where I can be the observer, so that I can see myself clearly, you know, so depression in a wave of just that one the day that you just don’t want to get out of That it just feels like your blanket is concrete, you know? And you can’t explain it or anything. And so I have to, I call it father myself or, you know, work within my higher self, if you will. And almost to put my hand on my shoulder, if you will, and say, Hey, I know what you’re feeling. Yeah. It’s almost like it’s two separate people or, you know, like my tradition. It’s you know, you’re a tripartite three part being spirit soul body, you have a spirit, you know, or I’m sorry, you are spirit you live in, you know, you have a soul you live in a body, you know, and now it seems like it’s probably more complex and yet more simple. It’s just but at any point, it’s just seeing myself in those feelings, I can feel this I’m not those feelings. Right. But I you know, I can resonate with those feelings. Who’s the it does that that’s me. You know, you talk to yourself. A couple of days ago, I was like, let’s have pizza and I was like, Who’s let’s

Brandon Handley 5:06
good idea for us to go get these things together. And that’s great though I was just I was just listening to a book this morning actually. It’s called mastering your emotions and the exercises in there is is what you just talked about, right? One of those is very powerful exercise you you see you see this observer exercise actually happen a

Unknown Speaker 5:26
lot in NLP, right? I’m not

Brandon Handley 5:29
sure yet, right. So it’s the same thing you you, you You see, first of all, you’re already here right? But if you can remove yourself one or two or three times and see that situation just like you said, you know you’re in that better fathering yourself. I love that because you know, as a father, you know what that means by you. Put your hand on on your shoulder, and you’re going to walk yourself out there with comfort and care and say, Hey, Paul, we got this we got right. And we’re gonna go face this, whatever it is. Absolutely. Right. Yeah, love that the concrete blanket man that made me feel I felt it. I felt that corps right. Yeah, man. So, you know, my tradition is what what is your tradition? Because you said my in my tradition,

Jeremy Snowden 6:11
right? My historically if you will, first time I make the distinction between religion and spirituality, right. I’m not religious, I’m spiritual.

Brandon Handley 6:20
Yeah, show Yeah.

Jeremy Snowden 6:21
Right. Yeah. But at the same time, it was, you know, growing up in up drew up in a Christian environment, if you will, okay. And everything was about hierarchies, structures and pecking orders. It just life in general. You know, like, who makes the most money who’s the cutest who’s the tallest, the smartest, prettiest? Sure. Um, you know, and just that, that linear thinking like that. And so, for me, breaking out of that, I don’t know if this is the proper time to talk about that or not, but basically just I was, you know, a very Launch Bible believer in you know, born again Christian you know for quite some time and while I do admire and respect a lot of my, a lot of my time there and of course my friends and my you know who become your, your family that you choose, you know? Sure it’s I can see it now and you know having the whole dark night of the soul or nights or months you know. Right So, but in that I can see the need for that as a part of part of my life. So that was my background. Sure.

Brandon Handley 7:31
Yeah. It’s funny you say that right? Like I’m I’m not religious, but I am spiritual and I think that a lot of people get that confused. I don’t have a religion. Yeah. But I am spiritual right because I think that you know, you have a religion you’re not you are not religious you have it right. Like, that’s your background and your your kind of upbringing and, and, and, you know, the path that you follow, and it’s funny that you bring up you know, we we have Eddie Bryan and In common a couple weeks ago like i said i was first I listened to him but you know there’s some he talks about Vedanta and Hinduism right and he talks about all the different paths of Hinduism and right in the end he does it sooner or later you just got to bet on one line later just got it you got it you got a bet on one Yeah. Oh it because otherwise you’re just always kind of popping around Yeah. And it It’s funny how I landed on the just pick one theory or idea and I got that through the science of getting rich Wallace D wattles. Right I’ve never read that book. I mean, it’s it’s my all time it’s in my top five man it’s such a great book. But it’s like just follow just read this one book and don’t read any don’t pay attention to anything else for like until you This is part of your soul,

Unknown Speaker 8:54
bro.

Brandon Handley 8:56
I’m so sorry to dive down in that right so okay. So you’re running the men’s group. Let’s give a little more background journey man like, I mean, let’s let’s do this first, I always like to talk about the front end of it, you know, what is it you’re doing? Tell us about? Tell us about your tell us about the men’s group, right? The hero’s journey, men’s online discussion circle, right? Like, how did that get started? And what’s going on?

Jeremy Snowden 9:21
Yeah, so almost two years, well,

longer than two years ago, I connected with some guys and some Facebook groups. And I was just blown away to see what the same questions over and over and over again. You know, my wife cheated on me, you know, or my wife left me or my girlfriend, you know, yada, yada. Or we can’t give a lot we can never, you know, come to a conclusion on anything or whatever. Right? And so I figured, you know, I’m throwing my opinion in this whole thing, just to see what happens to kind of see where I’m at with my peers. You know, where are we at? You guys don’t know me from Adam. I don’t know you from Adam. And you. It’s almost like my friend of mine, Andy. You might No to he and he’s just he just trolls your stuff because he thinks you’re cool. You know? We can’t is it silly?

Brandon Handley 10:07
Yeah, yes. No, he’s funny though. So he doesn’t get a choice. Great troll. Yeah.

Jeremy Snowden 10:12
And he’s like, and he’s sort of my, my spiritual project, you know, to get him to start walking along that

Brandon Handley 10:20
path. Don’t go to the dark side.

Jeremy Snowden 10:22
Right and he’s he’s doing everything he can to, you know, push, push it up, push me off it but Anyway, I digress. But he says, You know, I said something about, you know, just try not to read the comments right about now with everything heated up. You read people’s comments, and you’re just like, oh, but he retorted and said that it’s all about the comments. And really, that’s that’s that’s community right there. Yeah, you can actually trace your community within those comments. You know, CS Lewis said it this way, and I’ll get off my soapbox. He said, I mean,

Brandon Handley 10:55
this is immunity. That’s exactly what this is the soapbox, bro. That’s why we’re here. All right. All right.

Jeremy Snowden 11:02
community doesn’t happen until someone else says YouTube. Mm hmm. You know, and so I created an online community of people that like, we have the same kind of challenges, you know, a lot of them are still married or, or, you know, some art, you know, and the thing that we do is we use the book as an excuse a friend of mine, Stan, you can you might know him as well. Stan, Michael, he, he wants to talk to me about the law of the third’s, it’s very similar to this mode to Brandon is like, you know, I have this light ring. I don’t know if you have a light rain, but I kind of see that as my vortex. You know, I mean, like, it’s, it’s almost like, if we were to practice you know, like all of the different magical traditions, if you will, where you could look through water and see spirit on the other side. That’s what we’re

Brandon Handley 11:56
doing. You know, we’re ending the evil stepmother and Mirror mirror on the wall. fairest of them all right. I mean, come on somebody that stops everywhere, right? Like, here’s the thing, like, here’s the thing is what’s so great about like this space is like, once you realize you tripped over into it, you’re like, Oh, it’s everywhere. Everybody’s been trying to tell me my entire life.

Jeremy Snowden 12:16
Come on. Right? Right on your face, right?

Brandon Handley 12:20
Mm hmm. I mean, we’ll cliches and you know, stuff. Your parents told you that you said, Nah, shut up. Stop. You’re crazy. Don’t talk to my friends. Right? It’s everywhere. I was I was on the plane, coming back from Denver. And I was watching the Madeline L’Engle movie with Oprah in it. A stitch in time, A Wrinkle in Time, Wrinkle in Time, man. And it was everything you and I are about and I was like, I was taking notes like furious. I was like, oh, brah Oh, Oprah, not again, more Oprah right um, Mirror mirror on the wall. Right, just like yeah, that’s the vortex that’s looking looking, looking looking. piercing the veil, right?

Jeremy Snowden 13:06
Yes. I’m

Brandon Handley 13:09
with you. Yeah, tell me more. So Hero’s Journey hero’s journey. Tell us all Batman.

Jeremy Snowden 13:14
So it’s very similar, right? You could see these different themes in everybody’s lives. We’re all living the same life.

Brandon Handley 13:21
Suddenly, let’s talk about the things right, let’s talk about let’s talk about the hero’s journey. Because if you’re not familiar with it, who’s it come from?

Jeremy Snowden 13:31
Joseph Campbell, is a mythologist very wise man who did research to be able to see these common themes and all stories Star Wars, right? Um,

Brandon Handley 13:45
gosh, went nuts. Oh, so if is he recently like that went went went when was he? You know, I do know some history on him. But I you know, I’m not this is not a test. But I want I want I want people to hear from you. I was like,

Unknown Speaker 14:00
No, kind of monopoly,

Jeremy Snowden 14:02
probably circa and I can look it up too.

But probably circa 1950s around that time, I guess

Brandon Handley 14:09
so he predates he predates Star Wars and all that

Jeremy Snowden 14:13
stuff, right? For sure. For sure. And yeah, just pulling him up here just as a nerd

Brandon Handley 14:18
with rain. Sure, man. So, before,

Jeremy Snowden 14:21
right so yeah, he was born. Right so

1904 so in died 1987 So, yeah, he was an inspiration to Steve Lucas. Is that right? I’m not a big Star Wars fan but Lucas. Lucas right, George There it goes. I think he’s towards. I’m showing my own coolness right now to some of your audience. Yeah, but anyway, um, he just really, you know, well, it says he was influenced, for instance by Nisha Christian Judy Krishnamurti. Carl Jung. I mean, just Schopenhauer. I mean, like he basically canonized The concept of you know that the departure, the initiation of the hero, and the return, you know, and with each and there’s got subsections and all that you could read on it, of course online. But it’s just that we have the same story except I think in my mind’s eye, I’m thinking what you talked about Maslow’s hierarchy of needs kind of the same thing. You know, I’m saying there’s, there’s levels to this shit.

Brandon Handley 15:25
Right, right, right, though. Absolutely.

Jeremy Snowden 15:27
And unfortunately, we talked about it earlier, maybe some people this round just don’t want to get it.

Brandon Handley 15:32
Well, there’s a there’s a section in the story, right is some people reject the hero’s call, right? Because the beginning there, right? is is is okay. And and here’s, you know, if you want my take on it, which you’re not asking for, but I’ll give it to you. Ain’t on me. Right. So we’ve got the hero’s journey. Then there’s, there’s the call of the hero, right? That’s when you’re when you and I are in this journey, we felt something I mean, so overwhelming that if you didn’t do it, something inside you died. Yeah. Right if you don’t and that’s so that’s the that’s the hero’s call, right? The hero’s call is, is there’s something

Unknown Speaker 16:17
within me that if I don’t share it,

Brandon Handley 16:21
if I don’t help to give this away

Unknown Speaker 16:24
within my lifetime I may as well stop now. Right? Yeah.

Brandon Handley 16:29
So you feel that and then you have a couple opportunities to say Nah, fuck that I’m gonna go have a beer. Right? Right and so you can sub you can sub do that in a number of ways. And and I’m not sure if you ever watched the series on Netflix it’s called the umbrella factory. And and what I realized by watching the umbrella factory was there’s one girl on there I’m not not to give away the whole plot, but like she was subdued her entire life from her innate superpowers. By medication, right Though, you know, to what where I’m getting there is is like a religion, ad. You know, people who my grandmother was diagnosed as schizophrenic now, we didn’t have like we weren’t super close, but the question begs to be answered. What’s your medium? Yeah, right. Right. And and there wasn’t, there wasn’t the space in the place, then that we’ve got now available to allow for that. Yeah, to explore that, which is I love where we are now. So, to me, the hero’s call is just that right? There is something within you, right? And if you if you don’t answer that, you’ve got to suppress it. And that’s when you start to kind of each time because it’s going to be it’s going to come more than once. It’s gonna keep coming right there every, every moment in your life is kind of an opportunity for that hero’s call, right? Yeah. And if you don’t answer that You’re gonna wither away and die. Yeah. Yeah, that’s my take on it.

Jeremy Snowden 18:04
What do I think that’s wonderful man, that’s, that’s really good. I love this volley. Plain and simple is because that’s how I grow. You know, for the longest I looked around to people that were in suits on Sunday morning, and it’s like, you guys can’t bring the fire here What’s going on? You know, and I was like, there’s got to be more. And it’s not that they weren’t good people. It’s just that sometimes when we put constraints on our, our faith or our religion, whatever it is, right, it’s, it’s we kind of like it’s like, I used to lead worship, you know, so and I love worship music. But it was like, only part of the dance and when I when I when I stepped down from that, if you will, and began to sit down on my back porch, right, and, you know, dance in front of the moon. Nobody else is around. It’s just me and God. So everything outside of my body is dancing with me. It felt more authentic. Then, you know, playing and although I still play music I still love. I still love worship music but it seemed that I was, you know, we could we following a rigid tradition didn’t allow me or spirit for me to be able to just blossom it just kept me in this kind of in a confined space so sure, sure kind

Brandon Handley 19:21
of like kind of like I mean, if you think about a tangle of roots and in a confined space in a box, right, like I mean, there’s just

Unknown Speaker 19:29
nowhere to go.

Brandon Handley 19:30
Yeah, okay. Well, I mean, it’s fair, but I’m just curious too, because all right, look, you’ve got this group you’re doing you’re and you’re and you’re walking them through, like the hero’s journey, right? So I stopped everybody here for a second at, you know, rejecting the call. So what happens when you answered a call is you know, take me there. Right?

Jeremy Snowden 19:48
Well, I mean, first off, and I know this different for everybody. I mean, number one is when i don’t know i don’t get probably the same thing. Granted, it’s like even the cashier will start telling me about it. Marriage, you know, I’m saying and it’s so it’s like you know, I gotta also safeguard my energy at the same time but it’s like working with guys that are like somes kind of like a little off and I need some just help. What they really need is just somebody to walk with them that second phase right, which is the initiation right percent, right. So it’s, it’s and it’s it’s Simba or I’m sorry. It’s symbols friends. Timonium, Puma. Yeah. Cool.

Brandon Handley 20:30
Right. So now saying that the other day I don’t even care. No.

Jeremy Snowden 20:34
Yeah. And then you have her freaky, right, the monkey that shows the bigger picture, if you will, right. And then the mentor Right, so the mystic, mystical mentor. There you go. And that’s where I mean again, that the hero’s journey arc works Yoda all stories, right. There you go. Right. Go. So walking with them is it for me at least it’s as much as just for saying I see you. Yeah, I see you. And he’s like, looking at you now. Right? You’ve done it.

Unknown Speaker 21:06
I’ll tell you

Brandon Handley 21:08
that, that that saves me. when when when, you know, when that happened to me, I was like something was a little off. And I had to reach out to, you know, three, three people, three different people. And I was like,

Unknown Speaker 21:21
I don’t know what’s going on. Yeah.

Brandon Handley 21:24
I’m not losing my shit, but I’m not quite right. I just thought I’d let you guys know. Right? And at same time also reached out to a Buddhist Reverend friend, right? I said, Hey, here’s what I’m feeling. And he goes, you’re cool. I was like, working with them. Right. But to your point, this is a little over three years ago. The I had the exact same feeling of, hey, look, I want to be the greeter. Right? Kind of like a scarecrow in The Wizard of Oz.

Unknown Speaker 21:58
Right. Yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 22:00
We’re gonna cross paths you’re gonna cross paths or paths are gonna interweave. You’re on the way to Emerald City. I’m sure I’ll walk along with you for a while.

Jeremy Snowden 22:08
We’re off to see the wizard. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah,

Brandon Handley 22:11
yeah, so exactly the same. Yeah. Tell me more.

Jeremy Snowden 22:14
Yeah. So a lot of the times, it’s, it’s a matter to, I mean, it’s just us watching them as kids, we had invisible friends. Right. And then we’re told, well, that’s stupid, you know, but I think that they serve whether they were real, you know, if you can, if you if you accept, you know, spirits or demons or whatever, if you go along that track are whether they are just an aspect or element of our own spirit or mind. You know, however you see it, they serve a purpose, you know, and one of those is to, to watch, like, you know, again, is my tradition. It’s like, there are such things, it’s watchers, right? Have you noticed a lot of paintings that people do when they’re shrooms are a plant medicine. There’s a lot of eyes around the eyes have it? Sure. So, you know, sometimes people just need you to be their spotter, you know, as they’re going through that stuff. You don’t need to have.

Brandon Handley 23:15
Yeah, you listen, you Listen, don’t trip by yourself on the first time, right? Like everybody knows that. I’m just saying, right? Like, it’s, it’s, it’s very similar though, right? Like, you know, you want to be in a safe place and especially when you’re in a vulnerable condition such as an awakening or such as like, you know, especially look men are just as vulnerable as anybody else. I I believe, more so because if they’re going through the, you know, the call to hero, right. And they don’t know where to turn. Most of us haven’t been prepared for this. Yes. Right or don’t recognize, right don’t recognize that they’ve been prepared for now because I’ll I would also say that due to the Your religion, you were able to put things into some kind of framework. You’re like, you know what, holy shit. there’s a there’s a story in the Bible that lines up to the scene that I’m going through right now, what was the outcome? And you could you can say in your mind, right, this was the outcome. What does that outcome really mean, though? Because that outcome no longer is, is this kind of this story, right? No, this is no longer like, you know, you know, the walls of Jericho, just falling down what, you know, what was that story? If I could put that into modern language, right, I circled it, you know, XYZ times. And, you know, is that a story of patience and perseverance of you know, and that’s what this really meant, right? And that’s what I’m experiencing. Sure. Is, did you have that? You know, is that how you kind of translated your, is that what made it easier for you or was it is it a journey that kind of like really set the tone for you?

Jeremy Snowden 24:56
Right, right. Well, it was, I guess, It was a mixture of both. So as you were sharing, I was like, dude, I’m I’m letting him go, because this is really this is solid meat here. This is about where I’m at. So it came to a point where and I won’t go into that on the just because for time sake, but, you know, I was going through my dark night of the soul if you will season right. And I just realized I need to zoom up a little further and not just assume that text, no offense to anybody else, any text. Okay, so across the board for me, if it does not resonate with my heart, I just can’t receive it. Right. Right. So if I can apply it because I think it’s wholesome, right? I mean, I All scripture is given for admiration and for admonition and examples for us and got out and I believe that they’re good. They’re good stories. Some of them don’t apply the way that I was told they applied. And so I have to, you know, observe them as the self Right, yeah. As it’s just like, you know, looking at your kids candy, I hate to, you know, make the word candy, you know, I’m saying but it’s like, you know, when you’re at Halloween, you’re just checking get your, you know, you get your fill of Reese’s Pieces that

Brandon Handley 26:14
you find those passwords don’t need all those candy.

Jeremy Snowden 26:18
But, you know, I had to I had to scrutinize each thoughts, you know, of any any text. So that’s why I’m listening to, you know, Edwin Bryant right now. And, you know, the yoga sutras of Patanjali. It’s because there are words there. They’re, what three 5000 years old. And he is explaining them and I even have to scrutinize him for myself for my own personal self right now. Not out loud, right? I’m

Brandon Handley 26:48
good.

Jeremy Snowden 26:49
All right, all the greats I don’t I just, I’ve come here on the same dispensation and it’s my responsibility to unpack it. You know, there’s a difference. I put it this way. There’s a difference. belief and faith, right?

And it’s like, yeah, was that media?

Yeah. So like faith is all scripture calls faith substance. Right? It’s a substance. Okay? Right. Whereas belief seems to me to be just an ideology, you know, and it’s like, sometimes we mistake I have in the past mistakes as interchangeable. But then when my ideology falls apart, that’s when your faith has to come alive. So that’s what happened. Okay, so when, when that happened, because of the dark night of the soul, right, I decided to investigate and search things to see if they’re actually what they really are for, for my own selves.

Brandon Handley 27:43
And describe, like dark night, a soul a little bit. So for somebody that, you know, that feels like they’ve been through it, or you know, or what does it mean to you because I think that that has a different meaning to people to

Unknown Speaker 27:55
write.

Jeremy Snowden 27:58
I think it’s part of this The Hero’s Journey story arc, if you will, in the dragons, the the bankruptcy, the divorce the, you know, the difference stimuluses that caused the response in you? Is it parallelisation? Like, I’ve been there, like, you know, where you’re just paralyzed, you don’t know what to do. It was Wednesday, like, a day ago, and now it’s, you know, Sunday morning or whatever, you know, you just kind of lose track of everything. It’s best. That’s my own personal experience. I don’t really cry a lot. It’s not.

Brandon Handley 28:31
I mean, is it like a depression point? Is it a focal point? Do you have to kind of hit?

Jeremy Snowden 28:38
Okay, so, very similar to what you said. It’s like, Is there a diagnosis for it? That is actually right. Or do we just what is what we call depression? Right? Yeah.

Is it? Is that

Unknown Speaker 28:54
the call? Sure you

Jeremy Snowden 28:57
believe so. You know, think it’s thick. Right, and they have to withdraw themselves and and heal themselves or not you know and so you know I kind of think that ladder it’s yeah I think you’re right my mom actually was kids phrenic and we her and I lived with her demons you know as her behavior is powerful

Brandon Handley 29:21
I mean how do you look at that now?

Jeremy Snowden 29:25
Yeah so i i i don’t know in terms of we’ve I guess my sisters and I’ve we’ve we’ve had that those conversations is a demon is a devils that are like literal doubles. Is it just the serotonin synaptic gaps and durose transmitters that blah blah, you know, misfire Listen, listen to I mean, there’s always there’s always a science psychology about it, right? Like I’m right. And that’s, that’s frustrating, right? Because you can science away just about anything you want. Right?

Brandon Handley 29:56
Let’s talk about it from let’s talk about it from just your You know, your own life experience perception, your own human words? Know what’s out. You know, if you’re looking at that right now, like I said about my grandmother does that, you know, all right, well, Was she a medium? Was there something was she in contact when you got plenty of people that say I talk to angels, you know, is there something trying to communicate through her and it was a matter of if she had had the right teacher or teaching. It could have been just tremendous power that could have brought good into the world.

Unknown Speaker 30:31
Sure.

Jeremy Snowden 30:33
Isn’t that crazy, too? And could it be I mean, and rest are soul. It could it be that she denied the call?

Brandon Handley 30:42
Don’t so that’s the thing, right? If you don’t, if you’re not,

Unknown Speaker 30:46
so, for me, a lot of this is already like my first language.

Brandon Handley 30:54
I was raised this way like my mother was I was born out in San Francisco. My mom was like, I mean I picked up the exact same eaching book. She got like, I’m stupid, retarded. Like, I mean, everything she ever said is like, I’m like, Oh my gosh, she was right. Right. and and, and and like, I mean, yeah, you know, I brought up Alan Watts with her and she’s like, Oh yeah, I remember seeing him in San Francisco, Alan. Know. And so, so when I experienced all this stuff, I kind of had a background in it right. I was like,

Jeremy Snowden 31:29
nice. It was almost like I’m

Brandon Handley 31:34
falling into like, down comforters. Wow, you were just like beautiful gowns. You know, like, wow, I was like, Man, this is a great place to be. Yeah. How can I explain to everybody else where I’m at, right like, I mean, and and do it in a way and that’s part about this podcast, right? How can you know a big part of it’s okay, great. It’s cool. You feel that way, but How can you apply that in? Yeah, practicality, right? And so, so you’re doing that in your group, right? you’re grabbing these men. And you’re saying, All right, we’re cool here. This is a safe space. Here’s what you’re going through, and you’re using the hero’s journey to walk them along the journey. Right?

Jeremy Snowden 32:19
So through the challenges of everyday life through divorce or whatever. And also like, like, in my case, for instance, which in the hero’s journey Ark, my dragon was hell. I mean, Holy moly, right. I mean, like, if I’m wrong, I can get a, you know, you know, don’t collect $200 go directly to hell, you know, find stamped and it’s your own. It’s your own damn fault, Jeremy, because I’m now seeking things or allowing things or understanding things that are contrary to my upbringing, if you will. So that was my that was that was that I was just so afraid. You know what What people are gonna think, you know, how people are gonna act toward me, now that I’m able to hold space for a wizard, if I wanted to, you know, I’m saying, you know, or somebody else, it’s all welcome here.

Brandon Handley 33:11
Sorry. I’m sure the reference behind that. I don’t even know, man, I’m just you know, let’s just like it’s just like, hey, like, you know, all are welcome. Nobody’s kind of kept out. Right. And so that’s kind of what you were you’re talking about. Right?

Jeremy Snowden 33:25
Right. But it was because I hit that firewall and push through it, you know, and what if I can give? Can I give a brief example, dude? Yeah, absolutely. Please do. So a couple of years ago, I did plant medicine over at a Native American church. Right. Okay. And I was like, for sure. This is the thing that sends you to hell

Brandon Handley 33:45
right here, for sure. Was that the first time you’ve ever done plant medicine? Yes. Yeah. Okay. What is plant medicine?

Jeremy Snowden 33:53
Well, I guess.

I think I guess that’s not exactly true, but From a vantage point of hallucinogenic as a medicinal

Brandon Handley 34:04
right for medicinal purposes well yeah as originally intended

Jeremy Snowden 34:09
one could argue that marijuana is plant medicine. Sure. Absolutely. Talking about that about and I westca no it’s the it’s the South American route that is extracted created into a tea you drink it shit yourself, etc etc.

Brandon Handley 34:24
There’s nowhere to go a little declare. Gives you as

Jeremy Snowden 34:29
many Doritos as

you want. You’re like, absolutely

Brandon Handley 34:35
good exchange.

Jeremy Snowden 34:36
So, you know, in my mind’s eye, I was like, I mean, I changed my will before I went in you know, I mean, it was I was thinking this I prepared with intentions, etc. about it. I meditated and prayed on it, and then I, you know, I went in, put your money down. That’s where it’s at, right everywhere. So I’m in of course, I won’t go into the experience right now, but The thing is, is that things that I seen made sense to me. Yeah. It makes sense to me in a way that maybe the things that I’ve read didn’t make sense to me. Sure. I didn’t change my religion, or if you will, so much as it it really helped me to open my spirit, if you will. Everybody should do it, because it was a trip and a half and it was a heavy deal,

Brandon Handley 35:24
you know, about no doubt. Well, but I mean, look, I it’s kind of like, um, it’s kind of like the the walls are already weakened. And that just, you know, that just

Unknown Speaker 35:37
positive in a damn

Jeremy Snowden 35:39
right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, it didn’t make me better. It didn’t make me a better father or husband or getting married or anything. It just changed you. Exactly. I mean, let’s just, even if you look at it from a purely scientific standpoint, you know, where it was the who’s hallucinogenic. It’s, you know, It was legal the way that I obtained it the whole nine yards. So I’m pretty certain that but it’s, you know, I’m just

Brandon Handley 36:06
waiting for the address at the end of the show.

Jeremy Snowden 36:14
Well, but the thing that if you just look at it from a scientific point of view, where it’s just a hallucinogenic that, you know, responded to your nervous system, creating a sense of euphoria and blah, blah, blah, colors, right, good shit. It was right. Nonetheless, it wasn’t really about the experience, right? Because it really is about the outcome. Really, right. Yeah. I, this experience is a great, everybody’s got it. Right. You know,

Brandon Handley 36:44
you take it, I mean, look at me, it’s, it’s, it’s, you know, everybody’s got experiences, right? It’s, it’s not that you don’t have the experiences How do you translate those experiences? And that’s, that’s really the outcome, like so it’s it’s every, you know, You know, my wife has never done any hardcore drugs, or drugs. I don’t think she’s ever smoked a weed or maybe she took a hit, but like, she never was like, hey, let’s sit around all afternoon and like smoke his bowl, like, Oh my God just filled the bottled water, right? Like she never hung out did all that, but like, um, you know, she’ll have some drinks and whatever. But so she’s had experiences that she’s had. And I’ve had, you know, plenty of experiences similar to one I just outlined and much rougher and tougher. And she looks at my life like, wow, you went through some shit. I’m like, it’s not. Everybody’s gone through some shit. It’s somebody translate that how do you? How do you take your stories, and empower yourself? Because what we’ve done though, historically, and I think this is part of what you’re teaching your men and working with your men is take these stories and your experiences, and empower yourself. And that’s kind of the pinnacle of the hero’s journey is that my writers? Tell me more. I’m talking way too much. Yes,

Jeremy Snowden 37:56
this is the collaborate. I think it’s great but the return That’s the final third of the hero’s journey the return when, you know King off, Arthur is able to pull the sword from the stone where Simba grabs the courage to be able to, you know, go and get his bride and defeat his uncle and circle and lie, you know. So. So it’s it’s again, it’s it’s, it’s the, it’s the return and for me, it’s like well, we started at the, you know the departure like with some some of my guys, we started the departure, and I don’t determine that for you. Like, I’m very careful not to try to dictate what I see God as for someone else. Yeah, you can’t. Right. Right, right. Yeah. That’s right.

Brandon Handley 38:42
So that’s what that’s what it is frustrating. Um, and that’s the product it’s frustrating but it’s also the problem because you Yeah, it’s uh, if you say you know, God, then you don’t know God type thing, right? Like because

Unknown Speaker 38:58
you can’t, you can’t

Brandon Handley 39:00
Put that into words. If you’ve gotten that kind of the first place that this kind of dawned on me experiences can’t be translated they must be experienced was a de five rings book. If you’ve ever read that, right? Have you ever read that? That Samurai? Oh, yeah. And I was just beginning Jiu Jitsu at the same time, but like he would be talking about like, you know, kind of these different sword moves and swords, spots and spaces. And he can tell you how to do the moves, you can watch how to do the moves, but it’s not until not only do you go try to do the moves, when you nail the move, and you get it right, then you know, you’ve just executed it correctly, right? You’re like, wow, you know, because it’ll be just a muscle here or muscle here and change and adjustment angle here or there. That makes it all work, right. So minor, minor adjustments, but when you nail it, you’ve experienced it. And that’s all you can tell somebody like you’ll know when you get it. Right, you’ll know when you write like algebra and fractions.

Jeremy Snowden 40:05
Yeah. Oh, and you’re like, bingo. Yeah, I got you best nine years of my life.

Brandon Handley 40:16
So, so you’re running this group, you’ve been running this group for a while now. Right? And and you’re, you’re ramping up. You want to expand my right or wrong. For sure. Yeah. Let’s talk about that. Tell me what’s up. Yeah.

Jeremy Snowden 40:31
So because of my experience of divorce seven years, and just when I was able to kind of release that yoke of what my reality was, or when I created as far as my story, and then realize I used to be, I used to be a husband and a father, then it’d become, you know, an ex husband. I changed roles right. And then the kids stopped calling me because they were certainly going off to high you know, High School in college. So they respect Less than less. And it’s like so now I’m not even a dad. And so it you know, although I was technically Of course, you know, when they needed something specially, but and and it’s just part of their journey they’re they’re doing what they need to do as well. But it really caused me to be up to to look inside to make it happen. And so that’s sort of what I’m approaching other guys that are just having those questions right now. You know so

Brandon Handley 41:26
the question is, what is what are some of the trigger questions you hear and you’re like, you’re like, you’re like I know it. I know you need me. Right, I can help you. What are those questions?

Jeremy Snowden 41:35
Well, the key the key word that I listened for should back in my Bible days, Hey, have you been reading your Bible? Not as much as I should? Sure. Yeah. Are you exercising not as much as I should? It’s like, why don’t you design a life for yourself when you fully embody yourself? And so you know, whenever I hear those kind of things like should how things are supposed to To be or ought to, if they’re open if people are open to it, and again, it’s a matter of audience, right? I don’t know who, who needs me. I’m, I’m just opening myself to do. I’m doing a 21 day kind of a challenge. It’s really not about the 21 days. It’s not about doing activities, although it is it’s just about someone watching you through your journey as you’re developing. So those dark days where you don’t want to get up and you get a text from me that says, you’re making your bed right and you’re doing your five push ups. Put a thumbs up when that’s done, holler to you later. Peace, right? It’ll put a smile on your face. It’ll make you it’ll make you do it even though you don’t want to do it. It’s valid. Right? It’s just it’s it’s billion dollar that they already have. Sure.

Brandon Handley 42:44
Yeah. That hasn’t been on hasn’t been hasn’t been bolstered. Right. It hasn’t been supported. It hasn’t been encouraged,

Jeremy Snowden 42:52
right? Um

Brandon Handley 42:55
I would you know, I would stop were we talking about it. I’m Sure you

Unknown Speaker 43:00
flow, the book flow, you bought a book

Brandon Handley 43:03
is it in his book where he talks about and I think it is in his book where he talks about like, you know, some of the older cultures like in China and Oriental cultures, they cultivated the sense of being, right. They cultivated, they were cultivated people. And we get the sense of and you know, when we say, oh, that person’s cultivated, we this we think aristocratic, we think money, wealth, and all these other things, but know, what he’s talking about is they’ve cultivated that inner sense of being right. They’ve cultivated that, you know, stoicism and applied it and it’s internalized, right. That’s, that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s what they’ve done. And that’s what we haven’t done. Right. So that in a Western culture, right, you know, and, and, and I’ll throw this other one at you too, because I keep kicking it around. You know, adulting is hard, but you know what, the full word is adulterated. We’ve been adulterated and changed, right? There’s this change and transition. So adulting being adulterated. When we go through this metamorphosis. It’s a it is a challenge. And if you don’t have people like yourself, myself, I’m there to catch you as you come in or greet you, right? I mean, the officer into the church is there to greet you to welcome you like that. Right? It’s You’re welcome here, come into this place where you’re welcome. And and and be prepared to hear some stories that if you’re, they’re no longer pearls before swine, right, that they’re no longer pearls before swine, like, these are all the stories that are now before you that after you cross this threshold of understanding, you get now you’re like, Ah, yeah, because you can’t you I think we’re talking a little bit about this earlier. It’s like you can’t go to people who haven’t already had the experience. Tell them about the experience, and have them ready to accept it because It sounds unreal.

Unknown Speaker 45:02
That’s right. Right. But the beauty is

Brandon Handley 45:08
we’ve got, you know, Vedanta Hinduism, all the stories from you know, the the writing to your pata shots. But I mean even, you know, the the cuneiform Egypt lives this, these are not and this is this is what you’re talking about though these are not new feelings. These are not new questions. These questions have all been answered before. Yeah. But they’ve been answered by generations before us who had other experiences to reference around them. Right. And we’ve got to do that now. We’ve got to retranslate those stories into a language that somebody else can understand.

Jeremy Snowden 45:46
And more or less one that resonates with our just tacking on for me, it’s like, yeah, yeah, right. It’s not something that I’m parroting anymore and not that you’re living it.

Brandon Handley 45:56
You’re living, you’re living it, you’ve embodied it. It is now internalized and when you express yourself, self expression, your inner self. Right? That’s what’s coming out. It’s like the Wayne Dyer thing, right? You know, if you put nothing if you’re an orange, essentially right, the only thing it’s going to come out of you is orange juice because all you’ve been putting in you is pouring right? I mean for you, all you’ve been putting into yourself is like this love, right? I’ve been putting into yourself Is this just the story and your understanding and you’ve been working on yourself? You’ve been cultivating yourself so that you can

Unknown Speaker 46:31
share so that you can get Yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Snowden 46:34
You know, I find that a lot of guys and again, I work in more in the manned space than I you know, I’ve got of course you know, lots of Lady for fret friends that are women but I pretty much in the man’s face in terms of self development. Um, and maybe that’s just more I’m just that’s how I’m wired. You know, I there’s a lot of common, there’s more commonality, so for sure, but you find that a lot of guys have been motivated and burdened by shame. Okay, it’s, it was the, it was the tool that drew the you know that trival drove him to school, it was the tool that kept him in line. It’s the and then all of a sudden, you know, and that’s where I’m thinking, Man, if people are feeling sensing that on the regular, something’s not right, your, your, your, your heart is as a as a and this is just my experience, if your heart is just pushes that way, it’s like it feels it and it pushes it away. And so sometimes people use excessive alcohol or drugs or whatever, you know, to, or eating or whatever to be able to mask that. But that’s just, that’s just the symptoms, you’re just cutting leaves off the, you know, the, the weed or whatever, you know, but it’s going to continue to grow. It’s just going to be there until you find a way to be able to not even address it, but address yourself. It’s okay. You know, it’s alright, man, everybody makes mistake, I really do it in my there. And just going through that process of not, you know, that self talk process to bring really an impact besides the story, the stories and outside thing, which some of it was true, some of it happened, a lot of it didn’t. And you replayed it, you know, 90,000 times every day over the last 20 years or whatever. So I think that’s why people need to have other people it’s not just by my coaching, you know, video, you know, whatever’s and you will be a millionaire too. It’s, hey, so was it hard brushing your teeth this morning, man. You know, you look tired, like doing a video. You know, like how when you do video with people.

Brandon Handley 48:49
So, you know when I chatted with a doctor who was helping men Go through depression, right? She was actually working on, you know, men who are suicidal, right? Trying to get them help, right because her brother had had done this himself. And so she made that kind of her life’s work

Unknown Speaker 49:15
column

Unknown Speaker 49:22
for three, to one more back.

Brandon Handley 49:27
What are some, like, you know, applications of kind of what we’re talking about there, right? Because it sounds to me a little bit like, you know, using the observer as a tool, right? That’s what it was right? So she would she would say, hey, with men, right? They want to try it first. They want to try to do it on their own first and so she would offer them a toolbox. Do you offer your guys like a toolbox? Beautiful.

Jeremy Snowden 49:49
I think that the the book study in itself is that toolbox like resource, and it’s really not me. It’s the other guys I mean, we get on a zoom call. We talked about You know, like, right now we’re doing Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. Right? Great ground, the great book, right? Yeah, nothing wrong with that. And we’re just going through it and what we’re doing, we’re talking the language to each other. So I use that as a toolbox. I mean, plain simple is people guys always say it’s so hard to be able to be a part of a men’s group. Well, the men’s group is, you know, your bowling league, if it’s the right guys, you know, or, you know, the people that you you know, whatever, you know, hike with or cycle with, that can be a part of your men’s group. So it doesn’t have to be an officially sanctioned thing. So that’s my that would be my tool, my toolbox and you know, then I work on work with people one on one, you know, we do the, the hero’s journey men’s circle, just that’s, that’s what I do. That’s what I do for my life, not for a living. So I’m charging for I probably never will. It’s just a way to be able to have these conversations because if you think about it, in Spanish, everybody’s taking Spanish, one Spanish To write, and none of us can even order from the taco truck. You know, I’m saying, why is that? Well, because we didn’t get a chance to practice it. Right? So when you’re reading a book, a really good book, and then you’re talking to somebody about it, like what you and I just did, you know, in the hero’s journey, you broke it down. I was like, amen. Amen. I was like, Wow, dude. So, you know, and then she’s talking about it. What does it do? It solidifies my ideas. It helps you to contrast them against yours. Sure, not for the not for the cause of debate. You’re a stranger you’re hearing you know, Australia or whatever. I know you’re not but you know, I’m saying

Brandon Handley 51:35
but actually, I heard there’s a lot of spiders there the other day and we don’t want to be in Australia. So

Unknown Speaker 51:40
Crikey there goes that cranky.

Brandon Handley 51:42
But I was like, they all said it with kangaroos and platypus and koalas.

Unknown Speaker 51:47
100%

Brandon Handley 51:50
The it’s also funny too. Are you able to do me a favor man. Take your camera and swirl it around and rattle off some of the books that

Unknown Speaker 52:01
Like well now, right? Yeah.

Jeremy Snowden 52:05
Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. The Millionaire Next Door right I know that you got that. First things first time traps Elements of Style as far as writing I think you and I think

Brandon Handley 52:16
that’s where we like that’s where we that’s where we hit off right like we really don’t know. Yeah.

Jeremy Snowden 52:23
One minute to do list Heidegger Martin Heidegger, you know, basic writings pemuteran john, which is great, right? I never saw you’re not so smart. It’s more just a analytical book. You got some Seth Godin represent, right? Yeah, check this

Unknown Speaker 52:38
out says one way book man. For sure. Right.

Jeremy Snowden 52:42
Right. So of course Four Agreements represent right. The Alchemist over there while the heart by

john Eldridge.

Hmm. You know, so, uh, I hate to say I’m well read, but I’m just not.

Unknown Speaker 52:57
So. I think

Brandon Handley 52:58
I think the other thing you hit on there too. is, you know, it’s not just reading these books, discussing them and applying them. So otherwise it’s a it’s what they call shelf esteem. Whoo. Right. Right. You know, what good is it doing it? Yeah. Great. You read all the books. What out of that particular book did you love right? Or you know, if you want to, you know, we’ll talk about I talked about high fidelity and the crown a lot, you know, not the chronological order but how you got from how I got from like, you know, blondie, you know, Tomic in 1981 to shatter herbs and Rolling Stones like got into like a you know, man who’s right out to that like a talking heads you know, it’s always the same, it’s the same right like I could tell you a chronological order how I made these brownies and and and the songs and how they made me move. right and and and and what I took out at that time, what was my heart feeling? Same thing with the book. So right like, What? What inside of that book made? What was the? What about that book made you move? What about that book made you change? What changes did you make? Because you’ve read that?

Unknown Speaker 54:18
Yeah. Right. So, um

Brandon Handley 54:23
what are some like great applications that you would give some people from any one of those books include

Unknown Speaker 54:32
include include call heroes, you know, hero’s journey. Wow.

Jeremy Snowden 54:37
Um, well, again, I think that the the hero’s journey is a template for your entire life and it can happen so quickly right in different areas and aspects of your life. So it’s not just a one time winner takes all you know, it’s it’s you got to go through this story again, it’s just a different story. Like, like my kids, they went vegan, right. And I was thinking in my mind Amway is next.

Unknown Speaker 55:05
This only leads to one place.

Jeremy Snowden 55:08
Now, you know, no, not necessarily, but it’s just that we all go through face to face. Yeah. All right. Have you been born again yet? You know, are you

Unknown Speaker 55:16
sure? We go through the? Yep, yep. Yeah.

Jeremy Snowden 55:20
So, um, I think that probably love, of course, the Four Agreements primarily for its, if you will, the, the number, the preface, but the beginning where he talks about how society created things about us, like your name, it’s not your name. It’s what you’re called, you know, it’s not you, you know, or your language was chosen for you because of where you were born. You know, those kind of, so when you when you when you understand that part, then you understand Wait a second, then, I mean, things get really weird. You’re like, what do I do with my hands, you know, kind of thing. It’s, and so I really like that seven hands. Habits of Highly Effective People. Oh my gosh, in terms of, you know, if you’re dealing with anger, for instance, you know, then, I mean, understanding Victor Frankel’s stuff, Jewish, Austrian psych psychiatrist and lecture now he’s on a table exercising his last Enduring Freedom, you know, the power to choose his response. He couldn’t control the stimulus what was happening to him at the time,

Unknown Speaker 56:24
right.

Jeremy Snowden 56:26
And, you know, his response you could control because of the space in between, which is his power to choose.

Brandon Handley 56:33
Yeah, that’s based in between is is it that’s, that’s something that me once you recognize that space in between, so there’s so much power and absolute there’s so much power in that. And you know, not for nothin like I was always like, felt like, you know, the fastest way to answer had to be like the smartest one right now. You’re the fastest One answer, but the more I think about it, like, the person who goes away and comes back with an answer, like the next day and really thought about it, that’s the person I admire, you know the person with a question. Okay, well, yeah, I’ll talk to you tomorrow.

Jeremy Snowden 57:16
Yeah. Nice.

Brandon Handley 57:18
Right and and then and then we usually within that time, you kind of figure out some answers for yourself. And to me anyways, whenever you ask a question, you’re like, Look, not for nothing. You’ve got it. You’ve got a pre loaded answer already. You know what I mean? You’re like, even in even for yourself, right? Like, you know, the whole idea of what you seek is seeking you, right? It’s just like, you’re just, you know, you’re sending out to the university. Like, this is what I’m looking for. It’ll the universe is like, Alright, well, here it is. You’re like, Ah, yeah. where, you know, you know, you know not I don’t know where you you, you only had eyes for that.

Jeremy Snowden 57:54
Right? Right. How about this, just throw a little bit of spice in Coggins did that. How many of us are self sabotaging at the 10th and goal all day,

Brandon Handley 58:07
every day?

Jeremy Snowden 58:08
Because we, I mean, we can see it through the membrane. And we’re afraid what that means.

Brandon Handley 58:14
There’s a really good book on that. Let me see if I’ve got it here. Notice there is I can do anything. I do anything, only if I knew what it was how to discover how to discover what you really want and how to get it. And this is, the concept is about scanners. Right? And scanners are like, you know, I forget what it is, but like, you know, some of us we’ve got this story, that we’re not going to go do this thing, because we feel like why can’t go do this because if I did that, I’d leave my family behind. Right or or like, you know, something would happen, my family, they would get upset with me and so we tell ourselves, all these stories They’re just that write stories. And so we stop ourselves at the 10 yard line. Because internally, we’ve got, like some story that we told ourselves that we heard, you know, 30 years ago.

Unknown Speaker 59:11
That’s so digged. In it’s it’s entrenched. Yeah. Right.

Brandon Handley 59:16
And and whether or not we like to admit it, we know that that’s still in there, right? We’re like, we’re like, now I got rid of that. Like, yo, bro, you don’t get rid of words. Right? They keep coming. They keep coming back. And that’s just like those stories that we keep telling ourselves and then we say, yeah, we think we got it fixed. And we am still there.

Jeremy Snowden 59:35
Right? Yeah. Incredible. Yeah.

Brandon Handley 59:38
Yeah, I mean,

Jeremy Snowden 59:39
that’s a that’s sorry. That’s like, a choice, right?

Brandon Handley 59:44
Yeah, that’s a space right. That’s a space in between, right. That’s a space that’s a that’s the that’s the opportunity to recognize the story that you’ve told yourself over and over and over and over again, and and that’s your opportunity to say Not today.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:01
Right? Yeah.

Brandon Handley 1:00:03
I talked way too much on this one, Jeremy, thanks for letting me talk. I mean, I can see why, you know, you’re you’re the guy that that, you know, thanks for this is how you hold space. I appreciate it. You know where, you know, you’ve got this coming up, where can people go join this group with you?

Jeremy Snowden 1:00:18
Absolutely. Thanks. And first off, I wanted to say, you know, I mean, like, you’re rocking it to, like, as far as like living your ultimate path. I can, I really can see from my side of the screen. Here’s somebody that’s going after it, you know, I’m saying you still have obligations, you still have things you have to do. And so this is extra right

Brandon Handley 1:00:40
side, hustle, whatever. It’s not. here’s, here’s, here’s the thing, and I appreciate that, right. It’s not the side hustle. This is I mean, you’ll listen to a lot of other people. If you make this the thing you have to do. There’s resistance in that and there’s worrying there’s concern and so you will think back, right you hold things back that are true. Do you because you’re concerned what other people may think. Right? And so if you just do it, because it’s true to you without expectation, I mean, we talk about Buddhism, right? And we talk about suffering is due to desires but suffering to me is due to our expectations suffering, his desires, our expectations, not being realized the way that we thought that they were going to come out right. So if we do this with the intention, if I do this with the intention that this has to work, all pressures on this all pressures on me that I lose my freedom with that, yeah, beautiful my freedom with that, so but I do appreciate the truth of the matter is this is true to me. 100% right now, getting to lead with spirituality instead of hiding behind your father for the rest of us was awesome. You know, doing that five group was great. They brought me To exactly where I am today it was necessary. I did you know I did prosperity practice and and dabbled in LA. But that also brought me here to ultimately spirituality. I’m like, you know what, I’m just gonna I’m just gonna leave with spirituality. Like we talked in the in this is like, that’s who I feel like I need to be I need to be the greeter I need to be the person that greets like you just like you right? Like, just like it is 100% you know, so we’re walking the same we’re walking a similar path, right? And and we’re just there to help people out man and the whole deal with this podcast is we’re out there doing it successfully and living our path and having a more fulfilled life through this version of ourselves.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:48
And there are plenty of people doing it. And my total intent is to show you that you can do it too.

Brandon Handley 1:02:58
I love that right. There’s some There’s something else. There’s something in Jeremy’s story that you’re going to hear today that resonates with you that says, I gotta, I gotta follow my path. I gotta, I gotta I gotta open up my own heart. I feel like I feel like I could you know, benefit from hanging out with Jeremy and learning about, um, you know, the hero’s journey, I’ve never heard about it. So go ahead, spend some time there. Understand it’s like to give people space and follow your path, man.

Jeremy Snowden 1:03:25
Absolutely. So we have a

Facebook group, of course, hero’s journey, which immense discussion discussion circle, which means you know, you’re in, you’re in if you want in your in piping, just we follow a DBA D Don’t be a, you know, whatever. Don’t Don’t just don’t troll in there just for the sake of trolling. Yeah, but it’s a great place to be able to connect, you know, it’s a safe spot. Some people what I’ve noticed, too, is there more. They’re more reserved, you know, they they they want to watch for While and that’s fine. And but it’s a great place to connect. And of course, you can message me, of course, Jeremy Snowden, feel free to add me if you’re a guy that’s into growth mindset, if you’re trying to find your way or if you just need some pointers or some feedback, always willing to schedule a call with you.

Brandon Handley 1:04:17
Yeah, I think that’s awesome that you’re holding that space for these people. And, you know, you’re accepting them and you’re helping them. You’re helping them find themselves man. And that’s super important. So thank you for joining. So that’s Jeremy Sloane on Facebook. And I know you’re on Instagram to where should they find you on Instagram?

Jeremy Snowden 1:04:39
Instagram is bald headed Movado. It’s a project that’s a tongue in cheek, I’m biracial. And so I kind of take potshots at you know, the the notion that you know, what are you supposed to be then? So it’s more of a tongue in cheek thanks, but I enjoy it. I love I love I’d love to connect there to all thank

Unknown Speaker 1:04:59
you Thank you so much for joining us today. Cool. Thanks, brother.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

I had the great opportunity to hang out with Dan Reeves as we discuss accepting a higher power in your life and what that looks like.

Dan has quite a bit to offer you in this episode and a number of tools along with practical application of these tools so that you can live a life fully tapped into your own spiritual being.

Be sure to reach out to Dan & let him know you heard this episode here today!

Places you can connect with Dan:

http://spiritualunderground.org/index.html

https://www.instagram.com/spiritualunderground/

https://www.facebook.com/SpiritualUnderground/

The 12 step book that Dan references in the podcast:

Brandon Handley 0:00
54321 Hey there spiritual dope spiritual is that that my podcast is so you listen after you go through like a few of them you forget like who you’re even announcing and like you have to get used to your new one and just how’s that gonna come out? Um, but hey guys I’m on with Moloch Dan is okay say last name de cerca. Certainly, Sadam ri is a spiritual underground. Dan, I connected just kind of just on the general idea of our podcasts and what we have to share. And it’s a similar journey. But just different tales, right. So pretty. And that’s the thing, right? So everybody’s kind of going through something. They just, you know, there’s a guy that listen to a book, Jed McKenna, and he’s kind of like this salty, spiritual guy, right? And what I like about him is that he says, He goes, listen, I don’t know how you’re going to get there. But I can tell you what to expect after you’ve gotten there, which I think is kind of interesting. So Dan, Thanks for hopping on today we are we’re tackling Sunday in this way. And and one of the things I, I like to ask people is, before we even get started, right, well, you and I talked, you interviewed me recently, people, we are kind of conduits for the universe to talk to, right. We’re conduits, our story that we’re sharing here. And what we’re sharing here today is meant probably for somebody else more so than it’s meant even for us. So for that person who’s listening today, just to receive the message that’s being delivered, what do you think, you know, what, what is something that somebody needs to hear that,

Dan Reeves 1:38
you know, the dopamine boost brought me to my knees, my, my, my bottom, so to speak. But the thing what I’m finding out as I keep on traveling this journey is that we all have some kind of room for more in our lives. That’s the question I ask people whenever I’m talking outside of the 12 steps, circles about you know, if they want to change their lives Do you have any room for more and I think most people the answer to that is yes. I have actually had one person tell me no i don’t really believe them. But you know there always is room for more problem as it seems like we get stuck and and hopefully with these things what I hope to be as a catalyst to unstuck people you know, no matter what direction you’re coming from, is that there is a way to get unstuck and I don’t know what that really is for you. I know what it was for me. But what I can promise you is that there is getting out of that hole is available to you might take some effort it’s gonna take some action for sure. But But you know, there’s there’s a hopeless feeling when a lot of people’s hearts that they’re like stuck in this spot, and they’re just gonna have to resign themselves to being this.

Brandon Handley 2:52
And this is all there is right? There’s nothing else right? Yeah, because it gets

Dan Reeves 2:56
Yeah, that my sponsor my mentor has so rewritten this 12 steps in a way not dot rewritten but reformatted it into some modern language and in the beginning of his book he puts a statement here this is not the way my life is supposed to be this is not the way my life is supposed to be now if you don’t fall under that category great but fact is I think a lot of people are you know I see this underlying you see it in the stores I think you’re you know spoke to you before and and I know your spirit you see this like almost a zombie like dissatisfaction underlying most people’s day to day you know, it’s everything looks to be like being done in a little bit of a pain spot. Like oh, man, I have to go to the grocery store. And, and, and, you know, operate on it playing today, man, I’m peeking around the next corner seeing what’s coming up next. Sure. And and And, you know, there just is you don’t have to stay in that spot. But get this one, you know, and some people would subscribe to more kind of wonder about that myself about how many trips around this blue, Big Blue Marble I get or wherever else I’m not really sure about that concept, but it has landed with me. But I know this trip is the one I got now. Sure, knowing what I don’t want to be doing is laying an old age wishing I would have,

Brandon Handley 4:24
huh, gosh, you know this, this is so great. You said that right? That was one of the one of the things I saved today. You know, a lot of people give Facebook a lot of shit, right? Yeah. But quite honestly, like I’m pulling up the picture right now because that was that was one of the things there’s actually two things that he said that they’re kind of resonating with me. But the first one is directly in line to that right says I hope your life is full of I can’t believe I did this, then I should have done it. Right. Yeah, that’s powerful stuff. And then and then the other line I had somebody a post today was kind of along the lines. What you’re saying there, right? You know, we’re peeking around this corner, or we’re waiting, and we’re sitting here suffering. And and the way I kind of pictured it is like, you know, there’s there’s always a wave coming, right? There’s always a wave coming and, you know, it’s your opportunity to stand there and get crushed by the wave. Or you have the opportunity to ride that wave. Right. So, but I did, I did, I did caveat it as like, if you go so you know, just as in terms of surfing, you know, it’s always a good idea to go with somebody who’s done that before. Right? Because you can learn on your own.

Dan Reeves 5:37
You know, why take that hard path? You know, I mean, and I’ll tell you why. Because, for me, I have trouble asking for help.

Brandon Handley 5:47
Yep, yep. Yep. You know,

Dan Reeves 5:48
the crucial words in the 12 step rooms, you know, help me I don’t know what to do. When somebody heard those words. I know then I didn’t have somebody I can work with. The flip side of that is, I know, I know. I know. Well, look,

Brandon Handley 6:05
I mean, we I think he said the beginning, we all know what to do. Right? We all know what we’re supposed to be doing. And this works in every realm, right? This is why this is why health coaching is so big, right? And nutrition coaching is like, we all know we’re supposed to get to the gym, we all know we’re supposed to eat better. We all know that we’re supposed to floss all these things, right? But until you get like the dentist reminding you like Hey, listen, if you don’t keep if you don’t floss, you’re gonna lose teeth. Right? If you if you don’t work out, you’re gonna you know, maybe live to be 70 instead of like a healthy 85 right and all these things. I need help man. That’s definitely powerful stuff though. So let’s give a little let’s give a little background right on kind of your podcast and what your spiritual dope is right? Because as you’re saying here, and I think what people may be hearing already is like you can’t you come from a place where it was no street dope. Yep,

Dan Reeves 7:00
yeah, you know i and i don’t fit the mold of that necessarily either what most people think about when they you know, when you see me and hear my story that I heard you say you know the video and the audio did not really line up because I came from an upper middle class back home with two parents who stayed intact. My mom passed away and 16 if they’d made it one more year to been 50 years of marriage. I had it you know, a little cliche saying I had everything I needed most of what I wanted sure, but yet still there was that thing that empty feeling me someplace and I know a lot more of that because I will talk from hindsight, right. You know, I didn’t know any of this when it was going on. But I still had that little thing where, you know, I just had trouble fitting in and I you know, I allowed myself to, you know, I hung out with some people who bullied me, because the companionship was worth the pain of the bullying. I put myself in situations where I was cultivated this programming inside of me have less than that, you know, everybody else had the playbook of how to do this thing called life and I must have missed that day in school and and and what I did was watch what you did and and at one point you know I ran into the you know somebody asked me what really my very first drugs for cigarettes but I ran into something that changed the way I feel because that was really what it was doing that’s why you know I needed I wasn’t okay with the way I felt when I ran into these substances to change the way I felt. I thought I’d found the magic key and you know, for a long time it was and you know, early on I started running into consequences getting caught with Oh, by the you know, in in 3d as in my lifetime and various other things that would have happened that that caused some consequences but none of them would make me change. One of the things was is I came from a relatively young my dad I my hometown God dad knows everybody with a little money in a lawyer in some know somebody You get out of trouble when you’re a kid. I look back at that. And I’m like, man, if I’d maybe had some secret, you know, I don’t know, again, what do you do wonder I look at that now, you know, when I run into somebody, some consequences are really a good thing, because that will change your trajectory, you know, otherwise, I just keep on going that direction. I’ll go on until some consequences happen.

Brandon Handley 9:18
Right now, like, and the other thing you heard I heard in your store, too. So I mean, you were at the same job for about 28 years. I haven’t gotten the specifics of the job. But this was a job that was sending you all around the world. You tell us a little bit about that.

Dan Reeves 9:31
Yeah, you know, well, I got a job right out of high school. Actually, I was still in high school and I started drafting I’m mechanically inclined, I just love that kind of stuff. I was doing mechanical drafting. I was doing architectural drafting. And I got a job and held it for like three years. And the fact is, is I couldn’t get to work it in the morning, the night before and I got a chance and chance again, to correct my behavior and I couldn’t do it and they let me go and you know, look at that as a blessing too, because that caused some changes. You know, that was some consequences, right? And lo and behold, you know, the universe just keeps on providing and I got a job just not too long after that it’s this place and it’s there’s a story around it, but I don’t think and I didn’t know where I was going and still a placement agency and didn’t know where I was going. And I still remember that really uncomfortable feeling, man, I’m walking in and trying to tell somebody that they should hire me. I just could not believe it myself. But they did. And they hired me is kind of funny story. I’d come from some minimum wage job and, and I told him what I needed to start and this is like in 1991, and I think I told him I needed $6 an hour to start. This was my was my offer. And the guy here steal that. Yeah,

Brandon Handley 10:43
doesn’t really matter what I was $6 an hour.

Dan Reeves 10:46
I was 20 years old, you know and, and in the God did not I don’t think he I think he was on a script because I don’t think he heard a word. I said, you know, he he looked at me he goes well, I’m sorry. So we started by at $8 and 90 cents an hour. Well, that Work and I’m like Did he just and so I got this job and and I traveled up you know I made I made work a real important thing and it’s not a bad thing right at all but I did I worked my way up and a few years they called me an engineer I don’t I check the some college box that’s another thing that doesn’t go it did for me it didn’t go out drinking and drug and did not go fit a college schedule.

Brandon Handley 11:27
We could not do that. Well you already kind of like we already habitual user at this point in

Dan Reeves 11:32
time. Yeah, but this time, you know, by the time I was in high school, I was smoking pot every day. I was drinking on the weekends is a little harder to drink in a day for me on the weekdays, you know that I could smoke pot and function. I spent my entire senior year

on cocaine.

You know, so I was already using pretty heavy stuff by that time. You know, I was I was taking acid when I before I had my driver’s license. We were reading breeze and I remember that so well is because we would be riding our bicycles.

I know it was before driving. Okay, yeah, by this

Brandon Handley 12:08
time I don’t think I said something I don’t think I’ve ever tried riding a bike while you’re on so that was really fun.

Dan Reeves 12:13
It really was. I can remember coming home at daybreak you know, listening to the birds singing and writing my 10 speed with no hands you know, because I could ride it thing no handed and just cruising up the road head known crawling my bedroom window it before mom and dad knew I was gone for the night. That’s about this time I was doing it, you know, and there was really nothing I wouldn’t do. If somebody had it. I did it, you know, went through phases, but you know, somehow are still able to keep my feet under me. You know, I got that second DUI when I was 19 years old and and the solution was not to stop drinking and driving. The solution was to do it smarter and better. I noticed that the 2d has I had one of them was because I was speeding and the other one I got pulled over because I had a taillight out. So that meant you’d need to do an airline pilot walk down around your car before went out, you know, it wasn’t a drink it was make sure that all in our lives working and do it smarter, and I didn’t get my third DUI until I was 38. So two years, wow, doing that, you know, but I did the formula, I got married, had a couple kids bought a home had this job that I thought I was gonna have forever because I kept on advancing up to the ranks and making more money every year. And, and, frankly, those years it’s a little you know, I don’t want to glorify the use, but it was fine. Yeah, you know, and it was fine. Until wasn’t any more.

Brandon Handley 13:37
Yeah, like I said, I mean, what point is it not fun anymore? And you know, throughout this whole thing, right? Are you still you’re still working your job and you’re still advancing? I’m still I’m functional.

Dan Reeves 13:47
Yeah, I am actually a superstar at work, because I’ll pull the rabbit out of the hat. It’s another kind of now look back at it is, it was more of that, you know, it was less of a drive and more of a to prove They’re more the kind of thing to prove that I’m good, you know, I have a little Superman thing you know that I need to be the superstar So, you know, looking back and stuff I you know, I’ll drag my feet on a project and not let them know it so that I can come in and get called in at the last minute to make the three point shot. You know, and I could always make the shot, you know, and and that would give me praise, right because Dan could pull these things off. But you know, through 12 step markers stuff I realized I wouldn’t pull that stuff off really, I was I was I was dragging my heels I was saying begun to not do anything until the last minute. But yeah, everything ever I was completely functional and I really stayed that way

until the end,

and sometime around 2005 My mom had a back surgery and and a drink and wasn’t working for me, but I couldn’t stop. Stop drinking every day. I’m stopping to beer joint across the street from New York. And if I didn’t already have kobir in a cooler in the car, I was stopping and getting some. And and I was coming home and I was playing chameleon. My wife had no idea I was drinking as many as I was, you know, look like maybe I was having to out the grill after work. But you know, effect was that, you know, I was guzzling down and I didn’t you know, I didn’t go to bed. I was sleeping in a recliner in my own room. You know, I’m in the main cave. I just totally disassociated myself from my family. I got these two young kids that that are that need a dad and he’s absent most of the time. I mean, he’s present physically, right, but I’m not there. Right. And the alcohol quit working and what I started to get my headaches every time you know that I drank it and it will just make me feel like crap. And I tried different you know, maybe, maybe I should drink some bourbon. Sure. Yeah. And you know, try to figure out the magic recipe gotta you gotta you gotta you got to up the ante. Yep. And and I come home. My mom had had this back surgery and she’d been she. Mom’s health was always bad. All our lives that matter. She pulled off as many years as she did, but I saw this bottle sitting in her bedroom and picked it up and looked at it in his prescription bottles. And it said for pain. Hmm, well, you know, I had some pain. Sure, yeah. And I shook out to about two pills of each one bottle each bottle to um, there’s two big pills and two little pills. I didn’t read the labels any further than that and put them in my pocket. But Matter of fact, what I did is I took the two small ones right now. And I put the two big ones in my pocket. And in about 45 minutes later, no pain. The world was okay. I actually have photographs of that night. At this time. My wife is working night shift. She’s a nurse working weekends, only night shifts, so she could make full time pay working just nights. And then she could be home with the kids all week and I’d be home with them in the weekend. Well, there’s a picture of the party that night with the kids and I had, you know, bandanas tied around their heads and do rags answer and what I found out later is that was too oxy cotton 40 something I’d taken

Brandon Handley 17:03
40 milligrams is that Yeah, that was just saying,

Dan Reeves 17:05
Yeah. Is that little or a lot? I don’t know. It was a lot for me. And they would do just one would do just about anybody. Sure.

But I didn’t know that then. And, you know, in the world righted itself and grabbed a couple, you know, the next night, Saturday night I took the other take. And although they weren’t what last night was they did just fine, sir. And, you know, there was a time when my drinking wasn’t every day, and I would just drink on the weekends. And what I say is that that collapsed on me. I started whereas, you know, it just the disease progressed, and I was drinking every day before long and the same thing with the pills.

Brandon Handley 17:45
I like how you kind of phrased it last time when you and I were talking right? You know, just dis ease, right? Yeah. I think it’s really I think it’s really important to kind of state it like that, right? Because if we and if we Look at disease in of itself. That’s something that kind of never goes away. And this is just me, right? Like, I’m not part of a program or anything like that. But if we if we take it and break it apart like that, right, we disaggregate that word and we say dis ease. We know that we are in a place of discomfort, right? Is that what you’re saying? I mean, yeah,

Dan Reeves 18:22
I am on but also believe that this thing is a

Brandon Handley 18:26
pervasive?

Dan Reeves 18:27
Yes, I do believe this is a lifelong thing for a guy like me. I don’t think that’s the case for everybody. But But for me, and you know, and I’ll throw something else out there, man, I’ll sell you this solution in any manner, you’re willing to buy it in, you know what I mean? So, sometimes that disease works for somebody and sometimes it doesn’t. And if you reject that premise, well, then I’m okay with that. Right. So I have a tools that will help you get better. Yeah, they just will. It isn’t really making a difference, whether it’s going to be better if you believe that this works for you, but it’s not Not necessarily a requirement but I do like that. You know it is it’s a dis ease. I am not okay with it myself. Right, right. I’m not at ease. I’m not sure that does bring it down to fundamental stuff. But I just like not comfortable my own skin, right? I don’t feel like I fit in with you. Alright. So I got three girls. My daughter and two girls stayed the night last night and they distract me over there to my right. So it did it did throw me off a little bit. Sure. But my my using stuff started collapsing. I mean, the same thing happened with the pills, so and so next weekend, I grabbed a couple more. It was just a weekend thing for a while. And they collapsed on me to where I needed these things every day. So I started getting with my doctor, I started doing other kind of things in order to get them. And if I came to your house and you had some you didn’t have anyone I left. So you go through all the relatives and you go Through all that, and when that ran out on I started going in people’s houses I didn’t know that is called burger Lee.

Brandon Handley 20:09
I mean, this whole thing advances while and you’re still working,

Dan Reeves 20:12
you’re still fully functional. Again the video the video did not match. Yeah, no, I’m just I was doing your right I just want to track

Brandon Handley 20:19
it right he’s tracking it right because I mean you’re you’re you’re going to work you’re a guy that’s getting sent internationally to get things done. Yep. And and you know that’s that’s that’s what everybody’s seen

Dan Reeves 20:31
yeah send me to Singapore to Korea we had offices in Thailand we you know I’ve been all over the globe with that company trusted to go do my job. Meanwhile, under the surface is this other dude it’s like almost you know it’s like two distinct personalities going on.

Brandon Handley 20:48
I’m just curious kind of like did you ever kind of decide what the underlying like primary pain was that that kept it going?

Dan Reeves 20:58
I do call it the disease of alcohol. That’s just what we say in our deals. It’s it would be like, and it’s just for simplifying terms. I’m not sure that it’s really right. Okay, but I do know that there are some kind of mental instability in me that unless I am doing something to treat that actively, I’m just not okay.

Brandon Handley 21:20
Okay. Yeah, yeah, look, so let’s move on to that. Right. Like I mean, so look, I think I think the story is like, you got in deep, right the story is you got in deep you were in the grip You know, you’re raising a family. You’re doing all the you know, theoretical exterior, right things your interiors getting leggy. But like, you know, there comes there comes a spot where like, I think I talked about like, hitting rock bottom right, like, I don’t think you always have to to get better. But you had a rock bottom moment.

Dan Reeves 21:53
Yeah, I did. You know, and I actually had two of them that I’ll speak quickly. One of them was in 2011 when this thing finally Ended up being enough and my marriage was getting Rocky and and that was a catalyst kind of event that this this dis ease in my marriage was becoming an issue and and I went to I called a doctor told me I couldn’t claim with my wife and told her what was going on and and sought help for the first time in 2011 and then not and I went to a detox center and got some help and dove into a and and what I say now is that was basically that week that event was basically off of a bad weekend. Because all it was was just a bad weekend. No big deal. I said I had a year of sobriety and I sat down on my tools thinking I was okay that I could move forward without this. Yeah. I didn’t really think it but I still

Unknown Speaker 22:51
have a lot of beer again.

Dan Reeves 22:53
Well, I stayed sober during that time and then slowly after I put down my tools, I remember my my My wife at that time was into herbal medicines and stuff and she had like these cheap vodka and brandy and stuff that she would soak like herbs and stuff into making tinctures. That’s right. Yeah. And I looked over there one day when I was getting ready to pay the bills and and I look over there because I know that cabinet right there was the one that they were sitting on and there was a bottle of vodka and bottle of brandy there and I went and got a Dixie cup of all things and thought I would just have a drink. well lit up this thing that we call the phenomenon of craving, which is once I put some in me, I’m not really going to be able to stop and a lot of people think that means tonight well I had a Dixie cup or two that night not stopped. But you know, a couple nights later look like a good, you know, and in the ball started rolling again. I ended up having that Marriott lost that marriage ended up in divorce. And my whole world just started crumbling. You know, after that, to that point to where and by now I’m breaking it out of steel and pills and I got caught a couple times by friends

associated people that knew me a little bit. Mm hmm.

And of doing the deal where I would take them out of your house, and those people let me off the hook on my promise that I would go seek help. I never did, right. But then finally I ended up getting into a house and I’ll tell this story as fast as I can, you know, sit here one night with a new girlfriend after coming back from Thailand. Now the thing you know, my sobriety dates didn’t really I had an international sobriety date and domestic sobriety date, you know, when, when the cat’s away, he’s gonna play soccer pretending to be sober during this time. You know, I’m sitting here with a new girlfriend. My kids are here in the house. her kids in house, they’re all in bed. I tell this girl I’m going to I’ll be right back. I walk out the back door, go around the corner. It’s dark. I go across the house because the old man across the street always had medicine that I like to have. And, and, and over time, they were on to me. Matter of fact, I’ve been continent house. Before, six months earlier, and I went over there and opened up the door, walk in their house while it’s occupied their home, go back in his bedroom, where he is sleeping, reach in a dresser drawer, get to the medicine, shake out a handful. And when I turned around this time, there was a shadow standing there with a baseball bat and pepper spray. And he put this pepper spray four inches from my face and blasted it and lit into me with a ball bat, man. I got away. Wow. I wrestled by him and got out. He spent that night run in the streets not knowing what to do. I took off or in a different direction from my home. He knew who it was obviously. I come back to my house at around two o’clock in the morning and to see all the lights on in my house. I went around the side house looked over there. My parents car was in the driveway and so was that girl’s car. I didn’t expect that girl’s car to be there. There was I lost all consideration for what was going on there during that time, you know, I was gone. What I found out was that that guy come over to my house and he had raked out two satellites and my windows and my door, he busted the window out in the door, he come in the house, he busted up everything that he could with the baseball bat. As he left in, my dad was over there, cleaning up the house. I sat down behind the pantry in my backyard and sitting there and I remember echoing over and over again, this, what am I going to do? What am I going to do? And I heard the back door open and close. And I looked up and there was my dad and he had two five gallon buckets and I didn’t know what he had at the moment. And he kept walking down the pathway that leads to where we set out the garbage. And I was trying to make myself as small as I possibly could so that he wouldn’t see me and, and I heard his voice say Damn. And I looked up and I said yeah, and he said, words that I will never forget. He said, Are you okay? Are you hurt? That is not what I was expecting to hear. Now, for my dad that actually is but because of what I was thinking of what I had done, those were not the words expected here. Next thing I know, I felt a hand on my knee and he sat down beside me and said, Come on, let’s go inside. Take a shower, hit the sack, and we’ll deal with this tomorrow.

Brandon Handley 27:15
That’s powerful, man.

Dan Reeves 27:16
That’s powerful. I tried to do that. And I came in and did that in the next morning. So let me finish this last little piece on this part. I come in the house. I went to bed I looked in teary eyes. My mother or my girlfriend. My kids did not wake up. The cops have been searching my house that night looking for me. My kids were spared that memory. They did not wake up as the cops for shining flashlights in our closets and under their beds. I woke up the next morning, I put that, that that girlfriend, my kids and her in my car and had them drive up the street so that if they got stopped, it wouldn’t be me and gotten her car. But before I did that, I got up, took a shower went back in the backyard, got under the rock where I’d left the handful of pills that I’ve got Before the night before, and took a half dozen of them and put the rest of them in my pocket and moved on with my day and that’s comes to show this there’s a blind in the book it says we couldn’t remember the the humiliation and the suffering of a week or a month ago, when we decided to drink again or decide to use again. And you know, I couldn’t remember the humiliation or the suffering of last night, right. The only thing I could think to do was put more pills in my body. Alright, so watch out for my arrest and that was well went down in a whole nother angle. Just cut to the chase on that I was looking at six to 20 years in prison. The scared to death I spent the next six months going TO to see the judge every month or every couple of weeks doing these pre trial things and seeing my lawyer my lawyer and the prosecutor in jail had me convinced I was going to prison for at least six years. And I met up with some dudes on a Tuesday night and and something shifted for me that night. And that was when I met my home group is this Underground, and that’s what the name of the podcast is after. Okay, walked into there and and and started doing one particular gentleman told me to do who is still my sponsor today. And I ended up getting sentenced to a year of home incarceration, a year probation and another year set on the side, set on the shelf, as we say, pending successful completion of those two. So what went from a six year to six to 20 year prison sentence, I ended up spending nine months on home incarceration and had time to do this work on myself and, and my trajectory changed forever.

Brandon Handley 29:36
For sure. For sure. I mean, you know, this is just super powerful. I love how your dad just kind of accepted you right in that situation.

Dan Reeves 29:43
He thought that my back always

Brandon Handley 29:45
Yeah, and I mean, that’s super powerful. Has somebody like that there for you,

Dan Reeves 29:50
you know, and he still lives with me, you know, he may walk by here.

Brandon Handley 29:53
For sure. You know, looking you know, you lost some relationships and if I recall correctly, you know, at that job that you thought you’re gonna have forever, that ends up kind of getting dissolved as well. Yeah. You know, but you know, you found yourself right? You found yourself amongst like some friends or at least some associates in the spiritual underground,

Dan Reeves 30:14
the alikom brothers, so okay really are they really are we I’m a tap on my phone away from Heaven help at my door if I need it. And, and I’m a tap away from providing help if somebody else needs it, I got

Brandon Handley 30:28
this, you know, so let’s talk a little bit about like kind of living this transform transform transformative life, right? Like I mean, cuz, you know, now you’re stepping into a new space, right? Like I made the joke about you know, 12 step program however, I really only know about two steps to that program. The first step is uh, you know, you kind of let go and and accept that there’s a higher power

Dan Reeves 30:55
right? First step is really, I have a problem.

Brandon Handley 30:58
Okay, first steps. You got a problem. Know the one stuff you got it you know you say hey there’s there’s a higher power is not just me and then like one of the one of the end steps is like spiritual awakening I’m like why skip the whole bunch of steps but yeah, you know let’s talk about like kind of what that journey is like I talked about maybe even some of the work that you did to get to where you are and how long you so if you don’t mind me asking Dan over

Dan Reeves 31:21
five and a half years so January was my five year

Brandon Handley 31:24
modulations man thank you that that’s a it’s a lot right and it’s a whole different life. Let’s talk about like kind of the the journey though to, to, to me it’s I feel like it’s liberation and freedom when you no longer have to observe like that the whole that those things have not necessarily observed. But like break those addictions right? Well once you once you have something else to do then to keep running back to those things that have a hold on your grip on you. You’re free to go live a whole Another life, right? Yep.

Dan Reeves 32:02
Yeah, you know,

I like to say, you know, do this say it enough a lot came into the rooms of recovery, the 12 step recovery to try to they told me I was spiritually sick. I thought that meant that they I thought they were dogging on me because I wasn’t going to church I had no religion to the process and an awesome sponsor and have a great bunch of me and I came to understand that my actual spirit my essence my very being had been sick and and morehow got sick and was from living this thing called life and not in my case and not a real healthy way. You know, you don’t you don’t pick up good tools on the path I was on.

Brandon Handley 32:42
Definitely mentioned tools several times to what are some of the tools right,

Dan Reeves 32:46
yeah, so that’s what this 12 step program gave me was some tools to work in. And I’ll also say that, you know, we’re now in the Louisville Kentucky area in replace, we’re offering this to people who are not necessarily addicts or alcoholics if they want some concrete tools. To do so, you know that you know, and there’s a lot of people a lot, there’s quite a few people Brasil brands, one of them is taking the 12 steps and kind of molded in his way, but it’s just really the same thing. You know, instead, I got a problem to solve, right? So I got a problem, there’s nothing before gone, right? I mean, unless I have something to work on, you know, if I don’t have something, then once there is a fix, you know, don’t break, you don’t fix something that ain’t broken. So I got to come to some understanding that this is actually a problem. Number two, that step two says, basically, you know, it says some, you know, there’s some pretty flowery 30 language and that’s one of the things that’s kind of blocks people but just coming to believe that a power greater than yourself can restore you to sanity. So there’s some funny language in that that says, you know, this power grid are so everybody defaults on God, right. So, what I like to say is that, you know, when I use the word God, I am saying it, just like Kleenex, you know, if you asked me for a tissue, and I hand you a box, and there’s tissue sticking out of it, you’re not looking on the bottom to see if they came from Meyers Kroger’s target or whatever. You know it. Kleenex it’s like saying Coca Cola. It’s like saying, you know, any other name brand thing. It’s just an easy word to use whatever that means to you, man, that should be your inner spirit as power greater self can come from inside it can be a more of a universal thing you might be nature could be music, it could be who knows what So, you know, I always like to get over the block. Yeah, I’m not doing this because you’re talking about God to me.

Brandon Handley 34:24
Yeah. Well, you know, anytime some business God like 99% of people, you know, especially in the Western Hemisphere, think that you’re, you’re saying you’re saying, the Christian God, right, the Christian God, Jesus God, God, the God that molest all these people, right, you know, and that’s a shame, right? Because now you’re holding yourself back from the possibility of accepting that higher power simply over your own beliefs of what that is, right.

Dan Reeves 34:51
So, you know, it says, Do you believe there’s a power that can help you to believe there is a way that power for my new sponsee is made

Unknown Speaker 35:00
You know, sure that hey,

Dan Reeves 35:02
do you think I can help you? Sure. You know, here’s where I was, here’s where I am. Do you think that it can happen for you? So it’s just coming to believe that you can get some help, is believing that you can get help necessary. Probably not required, but it does help if you’re, if you’re a willing participant. Then step three is saying, okay, man, I’m willing to have some help. That’s to help me step. You know, again, everybody gets hung up in this turn your will over will in life over the care of God. That’s at 30 languages that that bill Wilson, the author of that stuff, you know, let’s just get over the language. It’s just words and stuff. Yeah, we grant these noises in column words, right? When we accept the meanings of them. If you’re blocked up by the words, I will use different things like that or disease earlier in disease, right? You know, I’m not gonna let this human language be the block to how I can help you for sure. So help me that’s three. So then we get into some concrete work, man and I do an inventory of my life and I sit down and write down things of everything we call resentments, but I’ll write down the stuff that’s happened to me and what’s made me who I am. Where we’ve been you talked about before about being programmed, right? That we get programmed by our life experiences. Well, then this inventory, we go look at that. And in order to get deprogrammed, I got to look at the programming. And I said, my, my life experiences, it’s happened to me, and what made me who I am. So we got some concrete tools on how in a real simple to this four step tool is pretty easy of going through and looking at that stuff, right? We look at three things. We look at resentments. We look at fears, we look at the things because most people run about unfair, we’re scared of this. We’re scared of that for sure. And and what we’ve done in our sex lives in our sex inventory, how we think about that, just because it’s such a huge basis on what we are as a being a human being, you know, yeah. So we look at those three things. And then we do a fifth step, which is I tell somebody about everything. When I sit down and talk to my sponsor and told him all my dirty secrets, a weight lifts off.

Brandon Handley 36:55
Yeah, I mean, there’s I think there’s some vulnerability there too, right?

Dan Reeves 37:00
concept of it

Brandon Handley 37:00
yourself in a say you’re putting yourself in a place where, you know, this person could easily come down on you for all the stuff that you’ve ever done how you’ve been condemning yourself for each and every one of those things like 1000 lashings for each and every one of those things for years now, probably. And when you come clean to somebody, like your sponsor, and then they say, what else cheese? You’re like, why didn’t I give you enough?

Dan Reeves 37:26
Yeah, there’s some big I mean, one of the big tools in that fifth step exercises. You know, I did that take me to man, you’re not alone. Yeah, we think we’re hiding down in the closet with all our own dirty secrets. Ultimately, you know, to some extent, we’ve all done similar kind of things, and it wouldn’t make any difference. I don’t think you could take the attic and alcoholic aspects out of it. We still got stuff that we’re you know, not particularly happy about that? We did. Sure. So we do that and we have a couple more tools or we asked this power that’s greater ourselves to help us get over it help us to help take this stuff away. We call them character defects and stuff though, basically you know and I don’t like that term too much either because I am not defective. Let’s take the stuff that the what the way I’m operating that I don’t like the things that I’m doing and the way I’m operating and I’m not okay with the things that no longer serve me. There it is. Universe please help me get rid of this stuff right help me start operating on a new plane sir now just Just let me run through it real quick. Well my my head’s on to is that and then we go out and the people that we have hurt the people that we’ve done stuff to the people I stole pills from the people that are treated, you know, in a poor way. I go back out and I face those freakin people, man and I and I do a man’s with him. And we have a very powerful recipe for doing that. We have some prep work and some different things so that we can do that in a powerful manner. And we have a thing called the ninth step promises that that are a very powerful bunch of statements of things like a fear of economic insecurity to leave you

Brandon Handley 38:55
scared scarcity mindset,

Dan Reeves 38:56
right. That’s just one of them. Yeah, fear. People will leave you if you don’t, yeah, you’ll start being able to do things you never thought were possible. And it all comes up from going out there and clean up the past because now I’m not walking this earth, worrying about seeing you. Mm hmm. Right? Now if I’m gonna walk around and surfing right now, I’m afraid if I’m a bump into you at Kroger’s, and I had that looking over my shoulder thing all the time, I’m looking over my shoulder you I can’t look at where I’ve been. I gotta look where I’m going. Yeah, that’s a nice step allows me to clean up that path where I don’t have to look over my shoulder anymore. For sure. In repairs relationships, too.

Brandon Handley 39:32
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, look, it’s at least kind of gets it off your mind. Right? Even if I mean that relationship. You know, you have the opportunity to go out there and you’ve got the opportunity. This is a kind of an exercise of courage, the right exercise of facing your fears and extra action. Right and and Jerry,

Dan Reeves 39:54
you’re not necessarily asking for forgiveness from them. So much as Kind of forgiving yourself for the actions you’ve taken. There’s, there’s a lot of that there’s a big piece of it is not really, you know, it looks like it’s between me and that person. Really not. It’s between me and my inner self, or I got it cleaned up on my end. And to be honest, if that person rejects this event and tells it go to hell and wish you drink yourself to death, for sure to have executed the action and gratitude as a successful thing. Yeah. The reaction to it doesn’t matter.

Brandon Handley 40:27
I love that. Yeah, I mean, look, we all adopt

Dan Reeves 40:29
what happens though.

Brandon Handley 40:31
So but but there is that idea that you know, that that that that can still happen and and an understanding that their non acceptance of that from you shouldn’t reflect on your genuine intent.

Dan Reeves 40:50
And it is so rare that that ends up happening with this formula. When you go to somebody with your heart and your hand and you own the stuff you did. And that’s really what people want, right? You want that person to own that they did that. Really that’s what I don’t even do apologies to people anymore I do amends with people I use that same formula no matter what. Even if it’s a total story not long ago I was not quite the person I wanted to be with a clerk at the convenience store that a couple of months ago I went sat in my car was getting ready to leave and I was like, man, I don’t like leaving that bad juju behind and so I was like, so I get up in there and just go Hey, I’m not the guy to cut saw a man ago. I don’t want to operate like that guy anymore. And I harmed you by by being a jackass here today was real bad. It wasn’t like I but and I owned it. I asked her if there’s anything she needs to say to me. Yeah, that a few words and got some things off of her chest. So she had a chance to verbalize her stuff. And and then I asked her for anything I can do to make it up you know, and she’s standing over there jaw open because she’s never had any my do that. And we fixed this little rift June 1 real quick and I mess around with that the rest of day either, right?

Brandon Handley 42:03
Yeah, that’s great, man. I mean, it’s kind of like a vibratory cleansing we’ll call it right like yeah, I would you leave that behind, right? I love the Rift, right? same ideas a rift, right? Like a Tear Tear and like the the universal fabric,

Dan Reeves 42:17
right? You know, and that’s another one of the things that I can leave behind me, you know. So part of this 1011 or 12 is starting to practice these principles in my life and doing these and using these tools that I just spoke of, and that 12 says having had a spiritual awakening as a result of doing that work doing those step work and going and cleaning out the cleaning out my past. Then I now to carry that and give these tools to other people. And I use these and Matter of fact, I did a fifth step with my sponsor, we actually did a back and forth two way fifth step yesterday over some issues that have been going on some stuff about how we feel about this whole COVID thing and the pandemic and some stuff about the where we were at personally with the the social equality issues going on in the world right now. And, and then we also had a little rift in the universe amongst our home group of guys. And so we had this little wad of undone business. So we applied these tools in inventory and wrote it out and then spoke to each other about it and we’ll walk those tools out in order to get that piece of our thing you know, so that’s the one that’s the area that I see with this 12 step tools that I don’t I haven’t found personally anyplace else is that I have some concrete active tools that are not like I have to go to South America and take some wasco or Yeah, I don’t have to I don’t have to like go to these big huge lengths I can do this work from my bedroom and if I need to, I can do this fist up over the telephone with somebody you know, so I can I can put these principles and these tools into effect in their head they’re just concrete. And and

I’ve never seen anybody do this work that said, I wish I didn’t do it.

I will make a broad statement to Say that it that I can guarantee you that it will bring some improvement to your being it’ll it’ll improve, it will bring some more to your life as a guarantee.

Brandon Handley 44:12
Let’s hit that what was the fifth step again?

Dan Reeves 44:14
This step is that where you speak to somebody about this stuff. I said that the step actually says submitted to myself to God and another human being the exact nature of my wrongs. That’s what the step says. Basically, it looks a little like a confessional, but it’s really not because you get feedback on it. And so that’s, that’s, that’s sitting down and talking to somebody about it. And you know, that’s where, you know, you would do that in the lifestyle if you have a coach, right, but not a problem. You got something going on? Well, you would sit down with this coach, and he would talk to him about it. So right, yeah,

Brandon Handley 44:46
yeah. I mean, it’s the same ideas like you know, just kind of there’s a blockage, right, you throw or even like, you know, hey, I there’s, I feel like there’s some bad juju back there, right, or, we’re up ahead or whatever. And you got to ask yourself, not only does it not Serve me anymore as like, how else can I see this? How else can this be seen? Because your perception, Dan, Camp ception may not be the group’s perception, you talk to your group. And so when you bring this out of the group, what’s the use you, as a group see things exactly the way you do? Or is it most oftentimes, kind of different right now like, crazy, that’s not feeling or thinking that sits in your head?

Dan Reeves 45:22
Right? That is exactly part of that step, Tim, where it says that we talked to somebody about it. And so you want to think I say, I can’t see me very well, I really can’t. I’d like to think I can see that I really can’t. So like when I got something going on like that, I bump it off, either my sponsor or my support group members, my brothers in this brotherhood and say, Hey, man, here’s what’s going on. You know, what, what, what’s your What do you see in this? So I’ll get another set of eyes to see me and then the flip side of that is, you know, they don’t see themselves. I always say this. I don’t see me very well. I actually don’t run my life very well at all. Got a guy who does right I got a guy that does a pretty good damn job of running my life. Nevertheless, that’s stretching it. He’s not running my life but he does a really good job of guiding me now that guy he don’t do so good with his life either. But he’s got

Unknown Speaker 46:13
a guy

Brandon Handley 46:16
is great. And we build

Dan Reeves 46:17
that, you know, so you know, his guys my guy also right? So I got that guy and I got this, you know, there’s a thing into the back of the into the toaster and back into the there’s 164 pages is the sacred text of the hugs and arms and 12 steps in the back of it. It says he will in speaking of this power power, but it’s using that old, masculine Christian odd language. He will help you create the fellowship you crave.

Unknown Speaker 46:43
Hmm, yeah, I

Dan Reeves 46:45
never knew, you know, I didn’t know because at some base level, when you talk about what it was that was missing, hmm. It was that connection with my people that was missing throughout that whole thing and by party didn’t drink and I could get that temporary measure. than temporary connection with these people so it was it was filling that in a point came where I got to where I couldn’t do that with people anymore you know either mountain being you know nobody else was doing it I gotten so bad that I was embarrassed to show my use at that level for sure now here I have this fellowship with these guys around me that I’ve said I’ve got this connection to a community now and it’s broader than just you know it’s a big it’s the ripple in a pond thing right I got my I got my sponsor and real tight in that circle sure by the where the pebble landed in the water right and outside that next ring is my support group I really close guys that out that I work with and talk to you on a day to day and that we meet up once a week and see each other if not more times and that the guys that come to the retreats the guys that we go out to eat with

Brandon Handley 47:43
and you’re running these retreats right there

Dan Reeves 47:46
yeah you know it’s never one of these miracles that happen yeah. And I was one year sober and I was not one year so right ankle brace it on in my group was going to a local florist to have a little day trip retreat they were going to do and they went and I couldn’t go because it’s out there. by the county so the ankle bracelet that goes on like a BP Yeah. Now they would let me go do my recovery stuff. They let me go to work, they let me do the things. Let me take my kids to scouts and my daughter might send the scouts my daughters to dance and they let me do that, but this was outside where I could go and they wouldn’t let me. And so the following the one of the things was is they had people run into them, and they kind of complained about that they weren’t in a private location. Well, 20 years ago, my dad my brother and I built a log cabin on 54 acres outside of town here about an hour drive away. And they were talking about having that retreat and how lack of privacy and you know, you get that nudge from above, and I’m like, Hey, I got a place right and and I had in 2016 I held my first men’s retreat. There you go. Yeah, this year was my seventh. So yeah, and and, and, and I say over and over, I don’t know how this happens. You know, it never was orchestrated. It wasn’t like I said, Hey, I’m gonna do this Sunday. No different than the spiritual underground podcast. I never did set site on saying Sunday. I’m going to be doing this podcast or I’ve got I’ve got a woodshop in the backyard that was manifested out of this recovery movement. Sure. It was manifested it like almost no dollars to me. Right? And how that happens, you know, I, but now I have this after losing that 28 year career. A year before I lost that job. We built this switch up. I got all these tools out there. I’m starting to make stuff for people outfit and doing little projects on the side for money. And that and lo and behold, you know, I say when when God built that cabin in 1999, I had no idea what he was doing. Now is where I take people to do fifth steps. Bring my guys down there we have these retreats, church Dan, and then they had no

jack that

we call it we call it the Fargo hug club. There’s a little town in Indiana called Fargo and I read write nothing more than to gravel roads crossing. Right. Greenside. They’re in a train they’re on every corner, but we call it Fargo Hunt Club all my buddies have become that think of it as a sacred place It really is. No it did. It was built on dope and booze I stood up on that log wall driving spikes down through the walls with the beer cans sitting on the log behind me more concerned with knocking the beer over then I was driving the spike if I wouldn’t Yeah, and now now it’s a completely different energy down there right oh pletely different energy you know and I got this switch shot back here where now I have this gig that allows me to put my you know, I went to mankind project you know, and they have you talked about a mission you know, and my mission is to create a world of healing recovery through guiding people to find their true true purpose with the 12 steps

Brandon Handley 50:43
Yeah, yeah look and and you’re doing it right now. Right so and one of the things that I hit on before I know you work on are your guys created 12 step book. Sounds like you’re heavily promoting it might be something you guys are doing and kind of Cahoots. But you you also did. You became a yoga instructor. So I get that correct. I mean, so

Dan Reeves 51:02
yeah, that’s another one of the things you know, my miracle list is is deep enough that if I don’t, when I was brand new, my sponsor said these things were happening to me that were of great nature. And he said, you should start writing that stuff down. Right? Because you’re going to forget it. Yep. And I started doing it nowadays. We’ll do a little thing you’ll go add that to the list. And yeah, so I became a yoga instructor. I was that list. What do you is that I called my miracle. I call it my miracle list. I just always have you know, could be also you know, there’s a tool out there called a gratitude list where when you’re feeling down, you write down all the stuff that’s good, all your gratitude, you know, it’s kind of long term gratitude lists where I can go back and look at these things that have, frankly, the universe has brought me to where I’m at right now. Mm hmm.

Brandon Handley 51:45
Yeah, you must have something valuable left.

Dan Reeves 51:47
Why in the world what I believe is gonna drop me off here, right. So I begin to doubt it. The next thing I’m not going to be supported with, right? I go, you know, that can’t be, you know, I can’t do that. That’s beyond my abilities. Well, I’ll quick look at this guy. To list this miracle list, so tell me I look at what’s happened to date. What do you think it’s gonna stop? Yeah. So that, that that yoga teacher training thing was another thing some girl, you know, you know, that’s been our character defects is a essence I’ve been, since my marriage ended, certainly got no room for giving relationship advice, but a guy come into my life and she snuck me into a yoga class and She tricked me into going because she knew me I would make any reason not to do that, because that’s not masculine. I can’t do it. You know, I’m not flexible enough. I’m not you know, all the different reasons about why I couldn’t do that. And I fell in love with yoga and it became a part of my recovery. And that’s another thing that’s going on in the world is a combined 12 step recovery. Yoga thing that’s now combines the benefits of yoga with the benefits of 12 step philosophy and and gives you a little power punch through using those two tools. And now I coach people I’m working with to get into it because that exercise does something to me that I don’t Get from riding a bike or swimming or going to the gym. You can Oh, good

Brandon Handley 53:05
spirit. Right, right. Yeah, I mean look, I’m that that that’s all part of it right? I love it right? I love I love how you you know, you’re, you’re transitioning into this, this other being this authentic you right without without hiding underneath the pills without you know if you do have some self doubt you’re facing it with you know the stories that you’re telling yourself and reviewing the stories and looking at them in a different way instead of saying I’ll shoot ain’t gonna happen today I’m gonna have to have a beer All right, like they have today this year. And you know, you start to develop like these quote unquote, like healthier mechanisms of dealing,

Dan Reeves 53:46
right. Yeah, and it gives you that positive outlook to man I mean, it just means all the world to have these people around me we encourage one another my sponsor, they spend the biggest coach for me and encourage her from the beginning about you know, go for it day. Yeah.

Listen for it when you can do it, what can I do to help you do it?

Brandon Handley 54:03
That’s, that’s so important to right. So when you get that encouragement to go Be yourself. Alright? And when you get that encouragement that says, How can I help you? Right? You’re like, not only are you saying that I can and should go pursue this, but you’re willing to offer like assistance for that. Yeah, that’s powerful. Yeah. Now, tell me a little bit about the book you guys are using to apply to daily, like, you don’t have to be an alcoholic to use these tools.

Dan Reeves 54:35
Yeah. You know, kind of goes into you know, do you have to, you know, do you have to be from India to benefit from yoga, right, you know, I, we, one of the other premises and 12 step philosophy is, I gotta be able to, I gotta be willing to let go my own ideas. You know, we hang on to these camps and shoulds and it’s only this way and only those kind of people can do this, and we gotta let go of that stuff. So my sponsor was sober. He just said Alberta made 36 years at the 18 year mark, he had that feeling of, there’s got to be more. And he the universe provided and bumped him into some teachers. And his life changed with that many years sober from being this just not drinking dude to this plane that that I today get to benefit from. And so he had these teachers and he got this happen to him and he got to feeling like you know, you go around and this can cause a little bit of a rift but I’m comfortable speaking my truth today in this in this. A lot of recovery rooms is so so stuff going on in there. It’s not the level that we can get to. It’s a lot of there’s a lot of less than it could be recovery going on. And if you fall into those rooms, they’re just not very attractive when people are just struggling just to stay sober today. That becomes something you know that you know, we think Thank you and I you know if I’m like having a fight that hard at something, then somes not going, right. So he had all these tools and and it wasn’t documented. He wasn’t seeing it. And it’s not in that book that that book that bill Wilson wrote and released in 1935. Plus a lot of people rejected it 1935 language, right with that God hard hand, and other kind of thousand these and things like this that would cause a guy to inherently reject this stuff. So he put these tools down on paper and started writing this book about six years ago, modernizing the language and bringing forward obviously expanding the concepts of how to have what we call squeeze more juice out of this work, for sure. Yeah. And so he did that and he wrote a book and it’s called 12 step spiritual recovery. You can find it on Amazon author’s James Christopher Cohn. It is the 12 steps for anybody. He goes into showing how this you know without Coxon acts we pretty clear about this booze and dope, bringing us to our knees. You know Are you rejecting that premise? You’re not ready for help yet. But the normal person, what is it? You know, they needed to find what is that problem sometimes, you know, and that spiritual sickness thing is, is that, you know, frankly, our spirits get stepped on by doing this thing called life and it happens to our peer groups through our education through our parenting Archimedes this time do you find like, the kinds of ways

Brandon Handley 57:22
do you do find like the spirit really hasn’t been addressed? Right? Like, I mean, it’s good. Well, here’s the deal, though. Like, you know, do you remember any spiritual school like any spiritual class on spirituality from like, K through 12? Right, like, I don’t recall any No, I had some spiritual teachers walk through my life that

Dan Reeves 57:40
I couldn’t you know, what even said right, like so yeah, but even right, yeah, no, it’s a lack of exposure.

Brandon Handley 57:46
Right. And, and, and I think that even with the current western style church, is is that there’s, it’s very, here’s what you do. Here’s how They did it. But the application to the spirit doesn’t seem to be readily visible.

Dan Reeves 58:08
And it’s based on a lot of hope, you know, you got to just turn here, you know, just just hopeless, it’s going to work for you, you know, or this 12 step stuff actually gives you some tools and the action behind it. And I’m not so sure that’s the total effectiveness of the tools, although I know the tools are affecting the effectiveness may just be in that you’re doing something.

Brandon Handley 58:25
Sure. I mean, look,

Dan Reeves 58:27
you know, that you got off your ass and you’re doing something.

Brandon Handley 58:29
It doesn’t matter, though, right? Like, as long as you do get up and you get going, right, as long as you have just like you said, take some action and start leaning into it. I think that’s, that’s not too different than general coaching. It sounds like a lot of the tools are, you know, here’s what I’m finding more and more there’s overlap with the tools, right? It’s just how you apply them where you apply them when you apply them and all those things. So that’s what I say about the higher power thing and the tools and all that seems like a you know, everybody wants to be able to receive that gift but you need yours tablet to blue. Robin and Bill needs his with a green one and I need a wrap on on mine. It’s really all the same gift inside a box, you know, but it’s just got a little bit different colored ribbon on it and because it’s blue,

Dan Reeves 59:13
Brandon can accept it.

Unknown Speaker 59:14
Yeah, whatever reason,

Dan Reeves 59:16
cares why

Unknown Speaker 59:17
it’s the only color I see is blue.

Dan Reeves 59:18
Yeah. Because the further down the path I get, the more you do you start getting into alignment where you see you know, the Buddhist principles and stuff out of the Bhagavad Gita and, you know, and then even beyond, but for me, it’s big time growth when I start beyond actually peek into that Bible and seeing that those principles are there to you know, have to bridge that is also I actually what I get to do and that’s one of the things is that I always got this message and I’m not sure if it’s, I’m not sure if I took the message or if it was actually given to me. But I got this message that it was their way of highway kind of thing when any religion I would get into. I don’t know that I won’t say That’s true, but that’s the way I looked at it. We I can find a day man I get to pick and choose, I’d say through this trusted program. I get to go to Walmart Buy a brand new ball of playdough. And I get to come home and I get to form that thing up into what works for me and I get to build my own spirituality from scratch. And, and

and i think it works.

Brandon Handley 1:00:19
If it’s working for you, right, I think I think that it’s okay. One of the things that I kind of guess that I took away from a lot of these spiritual books and everything like that, is that if you just it’s just like anything else in life. If you just follow one, you’ll be cool. You probably just follow one. It’d be cool. If you just focus on kind of like one thing, no matter how small it is in life, you’ll be cool,

Dan Reeves 1:00:45
right? Yep, I didn’t start wrapping all these other ones and swinging them in until a little further down my path because the other thing that tells us tells me is to continue to seek. Yeah, continue to improve my conscious contact with whatever power it is that I’m getting hooked up with here. And in order to do that, I do that through yoga and I do that the man kind of do that for you in other books and I do that because when you mentioned a couple books to me on the podcast The other day I write the names of the books down because I didn’t think I got that message by accident.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:13
Hmm.

Dan Reeves 1:01:14
I’ll be open to looking and exploring this other stuff.

Brandon Handley 1:01:18
So you know, you’ve got the podcast going, you’ve got you know, somewhat of a movement going right you’re hosting events and

Dan Reeves 1:01:26
the 12 tips spiritual record, we call it TSS, or there’s a there’s a, there’s 12 steps spiritual recovery, calm, and there’s a Facebook page called 12 steps spiritual recovery. We’re hosting meetings here and lowered. They look a lot like 12 step meetings where anyone is welcome to come and try the 12 step tools.

Brandon Handley 1:01:42
Right, right. So is it t SSR? Calm?

Dan Reeves 1:01:46
Now it’s got that big old long thing. Okay. Make sure recovery.

Brandon Handley 1:01:50
Yeah, wanna make sure somebody finds it right. 12 steps spiritual recovery.com

podcast is a spiritual underground.org

Dan Reeves 1:01:58
Yep. They’re trying podcasts if you’re the website spiritual underground.org haven’t done as good a job keeping that up lately because I’ve got the little hit counter on it and just Matt in YouTube is two places where I’ve kind of invested some energy and decided that my energy hasn’t been really um actually think about redoing the website just put a link to the podcast you know put other put the Google Play and apple and the links on it and just let it be like that rather than put content but yeah, spiritual underground podcast is you know all all the major platforms that are out there Google Play, Spotify, Pandora, Apple anchor anchors the host

Brandon Handley 1:02:39
Yeah, no, I love it. I love it. And you know you’re putting out great content man. You’re helping people you got people reaching out to you from all over the world to thank you for kind of putting yourself out there and what you’re doing I thank you for you know, reaching out except in the conversations. You’ve mentioned some books I mean, what is what is what is like one or two books outside of of 12 step program obviously that have really impacted your journey. Hmm

Dan Reeves 1:03:07
one book is a journey into power is the Baron Baptist. He’s the

Unknown Speaker 1:03:13
he he is the

Dan Reeves 1:03:16
guru of the yoga style that I do is a power vinyasa Baptist style power. vinyasa is called journey into journey into power is what it’s called. And it goes through a lot of lifestyle stuff. It’s not just a yoga book it’s about what your diet is, you know you are what you eat to some extent you can’t go put crappy fuel in your body and expect it to run good. I can’t put crappy gas in my car expected to run good. He talks about meditation and and different things. So that was a that was definitely a big one. And you know, something that really turned my corner on the way I look at spirituality was there’s Oh, oh preacher called him at Fox and his sermon on the mount, which you know, no I want to reject that book because of its western. For me for Dan, want to reject that because it was based on Jesus words in the New Testament and the Sermon on the Mount and most people heard about that. But he shed a new light on what those things could mean for somebody rather than the meaning I had absorbed. So out of two books that probably shift my foundation. Those two things, that girl that snuck me into yoga bought me that journey and the power book before I ever two years before I ever thought about taking yoga teacher training. And I sat down and read that book, and I still am amazed a diver sat down and read that book. There was no reason I wasn’t really interested in yoga. Hmm. But I wonder like, you get a better read this my girlfriend gave it to me. I don’t know. But it did it. It changed me.

Brandon Handley 1:04:52
Hmm. I love it. I love it. You know Is there anything else that you know again, you know, we get through tail end here. That if you feel like anybody should hear out there, right? So if somebody made it to the end of this podcast, what else did they hear for today?

Dan Reeves 1:05:10
Let me tack that on this sort of little bit about the podcast. Where did the podcast explore how people come to find themselves? We call it recovery. To me recovery is to reclaim or reclaim that which was lost or stolen. That’s a definition I had found. And that’s in the process spiritual recovery stuff. So to in I heard your guests today, listen to your podcast. You know, I think this common theme is is that we’re trying to get closer to what our true selves are right. And there’s a bunch of avenues to do that. My roots come from 12 step recovery. I do believe that it will work for you regardless if you’re addict or alcoholic or just want some new tools in your life. What I do the podcast is have people come on and talk about their journey to how they found themselves or are moving. Yeah, I hesitate to say that max like found myself, but I’m closer than I used to be. And I’m on a journey of finding myself. Majority of it is that I think the big thing is, is that when you hear that other people have done it, especially in this podcast type of environment where you actually just hear these people’s voices and you hear the passion and in them about what, what has happened for him. That translates into hope for you that it can happen for you too. Beautiful, I love those voices. So that’s what I try to bring out what the podcast is that you said. It’s not really for me, it’s, if we can only touch one person with this podcast, and that person decides, hey, I want to be a better version of me. Then, then we then our mission is completed today.

Brandon Handley 1:06:46
And thank you so much for popping on. They really appreciate it, brother.

Dan Reeves 1:06:49
Thank you, man.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai