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Sean & I first met a few years back on Fatherhood for the Rest of Us & we hit it off… to me it was obvious he needed to be a guest on Spiritual Dope. I hope that you enjoy listening to this episode as we did having the conversation.

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You’re listening to the spiritual dope podcast with your host,

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Brandon Handley.

Brandon Handley 0:08
The spiritual dope.

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Be sure to follow

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us on Facebook and on our website, the spiritualdope.co

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Ready, set,

Brandon Handley 0:18
go. Hey there spiritual dope I am on today with Sean McCoy who is one of the hosts of the company table podcast, which is a series of recorded conversations, which he invites people to come to the table to have authentic, open and honest conversations across a spectrum of subjects ranging from difficult fun to controversial, the primary goal of the interaction is exemplified love and understanding and a discussion that would inform the listener while encouraging the happy conversation of their own. Man. It’s been a minute and for those of you that don’t know, Shawn, I’ve had a couple conversations before that was back in fatherhood for the rest of us. And when I spun up spiritual dope, I came across like your podcast has like, man, let’s get you back on so so I’m so thrilled to have you back on. Thanks for showing up today.

Unknown Speaker 1:07
It’s a pleasure to be here, my friend. And I really love what you’re doing. You know, when I first saw the title, I was just kind of was enamored with this idea, cuz I’ve had my own transition, even the last 24 to 36 months around around cannabis and around what that what that word means. And then I think just the idea of that intimacy with the divine intimacy with where you’re going with life, just in another way, you just kind of you just bring it the style as far as just as it’s very open, very inclusive. You’re trying to understand there’s no, there’s no desire to control or is it to overcome or to try to convince and I just think it’s a beautiful way to do it, man. Appreciate your work.

Brandon Handley 1:41
Now, thank you so much. Thank you. So I appreciate that means a lot. It really does. We’d like to start this off I say we on the host creator and all the other things but I like to start these off with the idea that you are a vessel for the divine right and and what comes through you needs to come through you for the universe to operate at its optimal scale. Right. And it needs to, you need to deliver a message to somebody who’s listening today. Right? What is that message that’s coming through today? Sure.

Sean McCoy 2:10
So I just finished coincidentally, the book it’s called the physics of God with Joseph Selby. And Joseph Selby is a quantum physicist. And I’m in the in the so interesting to me that I finished it today coming on your show, because one of the things in so he interplays You know, he kind of remarries science and religion, which I think had the big split back in the time of Galileo and Copernicus that was really kind of this, the beginning of the end of that that beautiful relationship where it had to be one or the other. And that dichotomy that dualism, I just, it has to be that’s been a big area of growth, for me personally, just getting away from all that polarity. But in that one of the things that he talked about was in Genesis, he alludes to this idea of looking at these quantum experiments and talking about quantum entanglement quantum foam, and all these other real fancy words. And I’m, I can, Sam, if he asked me to explain it to you unpack it, about 50 60% of it, because it’s not, you know, I’m a pretty heady guy, like I like to think but it’s, it’s complicated. But overall, one of the things that underlying things that made me think of what you just said was, in Genesis, we’ve heard this phrase anybody’s heard it, that man is made in God’s image in the typical response to the typical kind of human thought is that there’s a human element to God and he created and that, you know, we had, he had elbows and maybe some sort of element of the physical versus this idea from a quantum standpoint of looking and saying, no, it’s eternal consciousness that God has, that he’s infusing and creating you with that image, because that’s what we all have internally. So instead of being limited by the physical, and saying, Oh, this must be some physical manifestation of God, it’s more of a vessel to hold the manifestation of God which is the eternal self and the eternal consciousness of all of us so that I just kind of felt like that was one of those points in my head as I was listening to it this morning as I was out mountain biking like I just told you to do now the just in terms of your show and just the people in who’s out there wanting to know what what in the world is going on? Where is my place? And all this? What how in the world? What do I know to believe in because as soon as you find anything, there’s some other use especially now you can google anything and there’s gonna be somebody else telling you all the things that are wrong with it doesn’t matter if it’s a business No matter if it’s a belief or whatnot. And I think part of that mystery and part of that chaos is intentional into give us this this desire to seek and this desire to continue to go internally and this desire to truly try to be intimate with both ourselves others and the divine and so the ultimate message around all of that is that in that journey you’re not alone is one of the biggest lies out there this You and I were talking about our reminiscing I think you remember that shoot out the shower story that I told you about that is not out here this is I you know, I was first deciding to become a Christian and following go against this all this stuff I’d ever thought and like what in the world is my problem and I was in the gym in in the water was coming to my head and it was black and I can remember that you know this this radiance you know I get away from this idea that it’s light darkness but just this radiance off in the distance that you know started to go to and I could feel it. Like I’m like in my body but I’m normal but then my it’s this weird thing started to transition I got scared, right? You get kind of like, Whoa, this is way too kind of UI. I know one of your big questions about you know, and I don’t go too far ahead, but just understanding that you’re your own self, you know, your your self awareness and, and then I kind of put the kibosh on it, you know, just that moment of just fear. And, and you’d mentioned, yeah, you kind of you’re like, yeah, you’re not gonna have that same. So I think that idea of, I think if we all took a step back, and all the weird stuff, we’ve been through all the stuff that we’ve experienced, it doesn’t make any sense that it’s okay to it’s okay to relish and it’s okay to be to sit in the mystery and to sit in the unknown. And that I think we get too involved sometimes to try and to fill it, try to give it some parameter and some frame. And just instead of just basking in the idea that there’s a, there’s an element of this that we just can’t figure out. And then even if we do figure it, even if even as we go on that journey, what you may define as the divine or what you may define as these things, so not it doesn’t become a situation where I’m trying to get you to understand it the way that I do. But we can kind of find some commonality back to what we’re talking about before. One of the big words that’s been kind of redefined for me is the word peace for a long time. Always envision peace as this idea that there’s no problems that everything is you know, calm. It’s like just, there’s there’s no issues, there’s no anger, there’s no fighting, there’s no, it’s just one thing. And if you go back and look at the Hebrew word Shalom, and really what it means it talks about tension, like this tension between between areas, and if you look at the way bridges work, you’ll get the way that how’s it anything, that what creates that structures, there’s there’s counter tensions all over the place, right? tension bridge, and you’d suspend ropes, muscle works by tension, and so is it but when you look at it, we look at a bridge, it’s not moving, but it’s under incredible tension. And we see it when that tension breaks. So in terms of human in terms of relational aspects, it’s not about whether or not I can convince you of something that I think is right, or try to get you on my team, or try to use fear and shame and manipulation and power and authority because of my own shortcomings to get you to conform to something that I want to but can I sit in the attention of a differentiating opinion, thought truth, whatever you want to call it? It? Can I relish with you in that it can that is that okay? And I think that that’s where When, when, when all the great wisdom books talk about peace, I think if you really break it down, and if you really go further into the, the basic tenants of all of them, that’s what they’re talking about. And it’s not that you can get rid of that tension. And so we try to act like you know, it’s always like, you go back and read ancient wisdom books, again, it’s like, you can hear today’s story, then I was just having this conversation with my hands, you can hear the you go back and read him back at Kurt, you just got into reading Jeremiah, which is one of my favorite Old Testament prophets. And it sounds like they’re talking about today, those books were written 2800, you know, 3000 years ago now, you know, in terms of accuracy and verbatim, and is it inherent? I’m not an inerrant. I’m not gonna say, I mean, nothing is inerrant. I think that’s part of the beauty and mystery of all this. And so it’s more about the con, it’s more about what was the big takeaway, if somebody’s lamenting, if they’re not sure about tomorrow, there’s all these what do they do, there’s the chaos of life. It’s never, it’s just crazy, right? And we like to think that it’s never been crazier and never been more worried, never ever been weird or never been more uncertain than it is now. Because it’s the only reality that we have. It’s like the cart totally kind of thing of like, it’s just the power of the moment. And we sometimes dismiss and forget of what has come before us. And so so but when you read these old ancient writers, and you’re like, wait a minute, that sounds like now. And so because we think that because technology or other things have progressed, that means people are progressed with it. And it’s not really what that’s not the same. It’s not the same thing. It just means we’re right, we’re doing this by computer on on the internet versus, you know, versus some written letters like back in the day and look at some of the founding fathers and some of the people before that they would have these great debates. And people don’t realize that they would have them over the period of weeks and months over written letters, right, versus we can talk all day long over and over again, re edited and other assist, right, it’s all here for us. So really all that to say, you know, the three great questions that I always think about in terms of what people are, can take away when you’re looking at things and where they can find hope and inspiration, in a sense is as you look at things that used to be Is it good? Is it true? Is it beautiful, was the original kind of that’s the first way to look at it. I’ve been having this internal war around dualism, because as soon as you because good and bad is all subjective, even then, as an opposite you start going down that road. And you know, truth is a is a funny thing.

Unknown Speaker 9:12
Is it so as I know, that’s absolutely true. It’s like wow, you know, I used to think so too. Not so much anymore. And so instead of that, I like to say, is it beneficial? Is it is it harmonious? And is it beautiful? And so in terms of is it beneficial? Because that that really broadens that ability to understand the impact something has on you know, is it a bad thing to have cancer? Well, it could kill you. And that’s our initial thought is No. But if you’ve been around suffering, if you’ve been around some of these things that people go through, there’s a there’s a transformation that happens and this comes in part of the journey. The last couple years of recognizing this frequency isn’t you talk about your undercurrent to talk about formulas that walk through life, others a gentleman by the name of Alexander john Shi’a, who is one of two people they’ve been the most profound, had the most profound impact on me in the last couple of years, just in turn. My way see the divine The way I see the Christ if you will

Brandon Handley 10:05
see an author or friend or he’s

Unknown Speaker 10:07
kind of a way to become a friend like him and I like we actually talk once a week now we’re doing some things personally but he from a from an educational standpoint, was a anthropologist. He went to university Notre Dame, he studied under Joseph Campbell, Joseph Campbell was the hero’s journey. Joseph Campbell was inspired Star Wars, right. So just he was a student of Joseph Campbell.

Brandon Handley 10:26
That’s some powerful lineage right there.

Unknown Speaker 10:28
Yes. And so it’s so this comes into play, because you could you know, this, around the storyline. And so, but he grew up, he grew up Maronite Catholic, but he grew up in Birmingham, Alabama, in the 50s. And he’s Lebanese, he was first generation full Lebanese in, in the US. But because of this goes into this country how this works out because of segregation laws in the 50s. And 60s, they weren’t allowed to live anywhere by themselves. So they were like, it was like living back in Lebanon. So the irony is in terms of, like beneficial, so we would say none of us, I mean, like to think but would say that we should have laws that separate people based on ethnicity. But there’s a beautiful way that shows Well, something that’s negative like that can actually become a bit of a positive, if you will, depending and it allowed them to grow up kind of in this old way. He grew up basically in a Lebanese village in Birmingham, Alabama, with just his just his people, because the laws around it wouldn’t allow for them. And he was 13th 13th generation, his lineage goes back that many like 1300 years in terms of this particular tribe and his people and so he wasn’t a student of following that of Christ. You lived it, like it was a every day, embodied, very intimate, very traditional, very ritualistic very much in that in this in this sense, and not traditional like is in terms of like closed off. But in terms of like internal internal kind of discovery, internal kind of looking at is in terms of So anyway, partly Isn’t he but he realizes he needs to go somewhere else besides seminary, he needs to go somewhere besides your traditional and become just a priest because he was supposed to, that’s the reason he was named Alexander. So he goes to Notre Dame realizes that he cannot really get exposed to this because you can become this anthropology student in between Joseph Campbell and just the teachers that it blows up his whole foundation, because he was in this tribalistic, kind of like almost kind of set. And now it opens up his mind all these other ways. And all these other things, he starts to see the same pattern of the same elements throughout all these different whether it’s an ancient civilizations or current ones. And there’s uniqueness. But there’s also this synergy. And he starts to recognize this one, and he goes and becomes you get this masters and his PhD in clinical psychology. And then he goes on to use that as a practice. But he really is this internal struggle, he spends 40 years, and he has this moment where he takes the hero’s journey, Joseph Campbell’s journey, you can kind of come up different variations where there’s kind of four primary paths, there’s the first party step into the challenge, right, there’s the there’s the opportunity where you can begin the path. Second is the issues, the obstacles that you that you go through. Third is that is the transformation evolution, the fruit, the boom that you get in the fourth is in the service relative to that. And so that’s the those are the main Crux doesn’t mean tenants. What’s interesting about those four concepts is they are also the main tenants of all of our lives. As I start to see it, we all know this story. We’ve all had challenges, we’ve either stepped into it because we decided to a new job, a new podcast, a new, a new whatever, you have these moments of like stepping into this idea of like understanding things a different way. That takes courage. And there’s a step into that, right. And then there’s then what you do is like, great, here we go. And then all sudden you trip, you’re like, oh, what’s going on, and there’s obstacles, and that suffering is typically looked at as something we’re trying to avoid. But the irony is, that is part of that crucible that is part of that that intensity that allows for growth to happen, that’s where you become, I don’t like to use the word strong because it starts to create a, an element of like physicality, with just the ability to resist and that’s that growth that comes through that resistance, if you will. So as you grow through that, well, then there becomes a point when there’s a fruit, there’s a boon that happens, right? There’s something there’s an evolution, there’s a transformation, there’s a recognition, it’s like rings on a tree is that grow out, right? Don’t say this is the next ring, and you’re there. Yeah. And then of course, the fourth pass is this really, really critical part? Because now that you’ve done that, what are you going to do with this gift that you’ve been given? What is this new perspective? And now you start back at the first path, right? And now you start over because it’s not a linear thing? You’re not trying to get to a place and be done it’s this just continues man, we’re just on this.

Brandon Handley 14:12
Right? Absolutely. So you know, we got we got a lot in there to unpack my friend we got a lot and unpack so I’m ending with that last piece that she just said there. You know, the idea of to me is kinda like that Golden Ratio right of how the spiral continues to get larger as you say, you know, you start off in the beginning and then that’s your story like it just continues to get larger there’s more greater pieces that come into it but you keep circling around kind of the the primary aspects of your life and and your story, right, but everything else you bring into it, it gets larger, your boobs get larger, your challenges seem larger to the people beneath you, but like the those challenges are just your next evolution point. And it’s also like you said here, too With the idea of Yeah, going through all that, and then what do you do with that? Boom, right? This is done. I mean, look, man, not for nothing. That’s what you and I are doing with these podcasts, right? we’ve, we’ve discovered something else in our lives that it makes sense to share it out with other people help people maybe to find that for themselves. You know, a big piece that I’m doing right now is comes out of a book called power versus force. And the idea of, you know, accepting that challenge, Shawn, it’s gonna take what what’s it going to take? It’s gonna take a little bit of courage to take that step if you don’t take that step, right. The refusal of the call, right, that’s another part that’s a you know, that’s another big part. Right? So if you refuse to call the hero, that’s where you find in my mind, you find a lot of regret the coulda, shoulda woulda is what if I didn’t take that path? Right. So that’s kind of the refusal is is leads to this kind of life less lived. scenario.

Unknown Speaker 15:54
So stillborn is the word I always think about. Hmm, wow. So stillborn or stagnant? Like, like, if you refuse to recognize that pet like you don’t have to go down it. You don’t. I mean, you can even be when you’ve had, I’m sure you’ve seen people where you’ve had a major life challenge or change. It’s even forced upon them. And they’re still it’s like this, we call it denial or whatever. But they’re just not not going down the path. And so it’s like a broken record just kind of caught. Yeah. In that. You can’t go any further. And that’s the that’s the irony. Is it in? Is it everybody has the opportunity to say no, but you don’t have to go down these paths you, you can get the boon and then just sit on it. Right, right. Yeah, you’ve decided to take this. I hear it when you’re when you’re talking. Like there’s been a revelate there’s an intimacy there’s, you’ve seen something and now you’re like, ah, heck do I do with this thing? That’s it.

Brandon Handley 16:39
I mean, that’s, that’s it? 100%? Right. I mean, that’s the that’s the genesis of spiritual dope, right? The deal is that here, here, there’s this new, not necessarily even a new way of thinking, it’s just new to me way of being. And now how do I integrate that with all the other things and everything else has always ever been, and not even necessarily for benefits so that I can exist on all planes of existence, right? And just keep moving forward. And not feel as though I’m not honoring my inner self as well. Right, this connection to God, this divine right, this thing that really deserves much more honoring than I’ve ever given it before. But now that it’s here, I’m like,

Unknown Speaker 17:20
shit,

Brandon Handley 17:21
we got to do something here. Right. Right. So and, and, you know, I mean, just just for your own knowledge, like, I struggled with that, because it’s something that I’ve been with for a while, and I did the other podcast where I did prosperity practice, right. But then I was like, I’m still not honoring the truth of how I’m feeling right. I had a few conversations with some people that I knew that were and are. And I was like, well, there’s no reason why I can’t do it, too. Right. So let’s, let’s begin it with spiritual dope, right, let’s, uh, you know, I can help people through through that and find people such as yourself, and some others that are leading a life through spirituality, and having a more fulfilled kind of life purpose, because of it, right. And when they, you know, when they get to the end of it, they’re gonna be like, I did everything to honor like, the divine within myself. Right.

Unknown Speaker 18:11
Right. And also, it’s also a gift, right? It’s part of this is this, the opportunity comes to me you sort of define kind of why I mean, like, I love science, like it’s a part of this book is teaching us we can’t really trust even what we’re measuring. Even if we could, you know, the irony to science is they could never answer. Scientifically speaking, you cannot use the scientific method to answer the question that we all want to know.

Brandon Handley 18:35
At least it’s subjective, it’s always going to be subjective, actually, I mean, I did a podcast on last week on this, right. Like, the whole idea is like, it will always be subjective. But there are distinctive patterns in people who have fallen into this. And that’s, that’s why when you read meditations, that’s why when you read the Bible, that’s why when you know, you read any book of wisdom, you can now see that pattern, you’re like, holy shit, that’s the pattern. And and you can recognize that everywhere you go, you know, so the whole idea of everything’s a miracle and nothing’s a miracle. Everything’s God or nothing’s God, right? Like, you just got to make that choice. And that’s what you’ll see. So you know, one of the things that we you touched on it right was the you’re kind of yours what yours was quite literal, come to Jesus moment, while we talk about what that was like for you again, because this This podcast is, it’s also the gives people that understanding of Alright, well, this is happening to me now, what do I do with it? Right? We’ve been through a part of that. Obviously, we haven’t gotten to the end. But what does it look like from your perspective?

Unknown Speaker 19:44
Well, I think part of it is you have to be willing to relinquish control in a sense of what you think you know, and what you think is even possible, and that we’ve allowed ourselves I know I did for a long time. So when I was younger, up into my early 30s allowed myself to believe that because I was heady and because I was smart, because I had, you know, people told me so and I knew it. But somehow you’ve got that you’ve kind of figured it out. There’s there’s a, there’s a humble aspect to all this, that if that if I were to say anything from a preparation standpoint, it’s truly and this is our podcast, the one that I did. And even I think it dissipated a conversation, are you willing to just listen to this, hear it out. Now, I understand that you can’t hear out everything that’s ever thrown at you. And there’s a lot of noise out there. And there that is now more than ever, so the biggest challenge are so much noise, right? We can get lost in YouTube for hours and not even know where we’re at, or Instagram or whatever, you can get lost in the noise. But back you’re saying about this frequency? If it’s answers those questions, is it beneficial? Is it harmonious? And is it beautiful? Whoever saying it or whatever saying it, I think if you use that as kind of a starting point, say and then hear it out? I mean, how do you how do you sit there and listen to some of these ancient masters and some ancient people that and I mean, like even modern day ancients when they give wisdom and they give when they when they talk about these things. So all that to say that, just just be humble about what you’re doing. And be humble about the approach and realize that it’s okay to say that you don’t know something. And and then allow yourself to then explore and in really taking things that are uncomfortable, it took me forever, Brandon to not wince during the name Jesus. I mean, it took me years to not because for years, I was kind of like the, the church leader on Saturday Night Live where it was like, I would hear that word and just go, Oh, God, every time somebody resists Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, you know, kind of thing. It took me a while to tour that name didn’t, didn’t bother me. So I think in terms of that, in terms of that approach, there’s also a little bit of grace you have to give yourself to understand your and you have to knock off some of these old habits. This idea of, like, favorite real quick,

Brandon Handley 21:47
what is Grace mean to

Unknown Speaker 21:49
Grace’s the capacity for growth, the capacity for wandering and being lost a little bit from making the decision that maybe turns out later Nabis beneficial graces allowing for exploration and just the existence of a maybe even since I was a negative energy, but just an incomplete perspective, allowing for that incomplete perspective of yourself because that’s the thing we become self critical. Go back. I should have known better. How did I not know better? Oh my gosh, now that I know I will never get it wrong again. Right now. Okay, now I get it all now get all figured out. But just do it this way. It’ll stay that way. And I won’t falter. This hole is the one phrase that is getting more and more old for me is around. Oh, well. Nobody’s perfect. yet. We got that part. Everybody. Like we we all check the box that nobody’s perfect. That’s true. Okay, but what does that even mean? So that means there’s that there’s an allowance for for that stumbling. There’s an allowance for just that even hurt and pain and just being flat out wrong. In some cases. Last night on LinkedIn, of all places on social media, I saw a gracious interaction between two people, where one person was just being a smartass, and just a just a troll, just a absolute troll and just the other person responded with absolute kindness, absolute kind of truly, this and I even reached out to him personally. And now we’re connected and they’re gonna come on this oil and gas podcast that I’m doing because I’m like, I’m like, that was an amazing example of just, it was inspiring because to see somebody do what you hear mostly is all the ridiculousness, right? We don’t see that. So grace, and even if you do, Grace is allowing, what about that idiot? What about? I was I talk to my people that I know that follow Christ? And they’re like, do you know that Paul wrote half the New Testament, more than half the New Testament? Oh, by the way, he had a massive conversion story. There was a there was a point in his life where he killed Christians, because he just just because to eradicate them from the earth, like in a is awful ways you can approach a group of people like just ethnic cleansing, he was the guy in charge. And I was like, What? Yeah, the guy who wrote more than half the New Testament is attributed with with living a lifestyle like that.

Brandon Handley 23:57
I did not know that. I mean, that’s I mean, that that again, that’s, I mean, that’s a powerful image. It just one of the things that you think about right brings to my mind anyways, is maybe even our judicial system, or our penal system, right? Where, hey, somebody goes and makes like this stupid mistake, right? Murder is a stupid mistake. Not everybody means to murder somebody in this in certain scenarios. And I think that something you and I have probably learned along our path is how to, you know, not let our not be controlled by our emotions. It’s something you hear everybody always say, but that’s not easy to learn. Right? And it’s, it’s not easy to get somebody who’s a good teacher that either right and so that we don’t have a whole lot of examples of that. So, you know, somebody goes to the penal system, murder somebody, I’m not saying that’s a good idea. Don’t go out and do it. But in the end, like, I mean, you’re still going to be accepted by God. That was a big mistake, but like, this person still has the capability to become and do some great things. for humanity?

Unknown Speaker 25:01
Well, let’s do that. What makes me think of that is a former military. And so murder dependent back to the good and bad was beneficial, not beneficial, but what we celebrate our heroes in the uniform, right? The most celebrated people. I mean, Chris Kyle, people like that, that we think about, he was a sniper, like his entire job was to kill people were the right man. That’s what he did. I mean, that’s not such sugarcoat what his what his job was, and what he was given awards for, and medals and book deals, and a movie was made. So So it all depends on context and the perspective of whether you think it’s the right thing or not. So I think that’s, that’s really important, too. And then, and then again, back to your question about grace and redemption is it should it only be for one or the other based on what we think is, you know, acceptable or beneficial things are good or bad at that time. And that’s where you talk about dope. And one of the big areas in my life that kind of took a big, a very big deconstruction, or just was around legal narcotics is around drugs, including psychedelics, and I grew up kid in the 80s, total square, I didn’t drink till I was 21. Because it was illegal. That would give me a hard time they thought it was ridiculous that would do that. I was just kind of the way that I was wired. It didn’t mean that I didn’t drink. It didn’t mean I didn’t speed. It didn’t mean I didn’t break the law, or I wasn’t, you know, I’m not I’m not Jesus, and nor do I claim to be, but I tried to strive towards that, in the last couple years, one of the areas that that really kind of shattered this idea of kind of this, this belief, I was given before these this perspective, that was defined around illegal narcotics and the whole story behind that whole the whole drug war and start looking at cannabis, as well. I think it’s funny, we call it spiritual dope. It’s like, you know, if you go back and read, look and look at the plan to look at what it is, I can honestly think that might be the most valuable plant ever that God’s ever created, the utility of that plan is incredible in every way. And so the idea that we’ve outlawed it, especially based on something like race, and we’ve criminalized it, and there’s people that if you look at our our incarceration rate in the last 50 years in the United States, leads the world in incarceration per cat. I mean, that’s, that’s not something we should want to be number one, and that is any group in the organization, right? I mean, mass incarceration is not, it’s not a sign of a healthy, vibrant culture, in my opinion, which is really incredible. If you think of how well we’ve done economically, or even everything else, that we’ve done this with a massive segment of our population, disproportionately, you know, disassociated from everything that we do. And I think that’s a real opportunity going forward. But part of the pandemics put out there and pushing these social issues to the top is it’s like, it’s not about even equality, or just you know, we have to have, you know, a one of everything. It’s more like, you’re just you haven’t tapped into this base. It’s almost like knowledge, like, you haven’t even tapped into this amazing group of people. And you’ve been putting them to the side and oppressing them. And now it’s a chance to bring back everyone to the table, man, what you know, got Gumbo and all that stuff. You know, it’s all better when there’s this massive numbers of ingredients going into it,

Brandon Handley 27:43
not 100% and I love me some gumbo. I’m loving some gumbo, the you know, you brought you know bringing up dope, right? Like so what is your spiritual hit? Like what it what is your spiritual high?

Unknown Speaker 27:56
It’s happened to me a couple times. And it’s that revelation or that being exposed to something that I didn’t even know I needed to know, that I didn’t even know was even possible. And it kind of redefines what it resets the foundation it is. There’s a part of it that is awful. Because it’s like erasing the whole white chalkboard, the whiteboard all over again, you got to start over. But when you do that, it’s this revelation of opening the what’s possible. And I’ll give you a couple examples. One back to Alexander, he was talking to this other podcast about so near make Jesus his name was Yeshua, and Yeshua and he said the word in Aramaic for from us for what we call Messiah, or the Christ was missy. Missy. It’s an it’s almost like an automatic pa it’s this number I was out I was outside doing some work in the backyard and listen to sing ecosistema See, it was the issue of the must see what it is is in the word. The phonetics require the breath expulsion at the end. And that that breath expulsion is the real embodiment. So we think the way we speak English is totally different than the way that Aramaic, and a lot of other languages convey what they’re trying to say in terms of there wasn’t there wasn’t a very large in terms of phonetics, but in terms of how it interacted, it was conveying something. That breath right? In Genesis, right God breathes According to the legend breathes life into the dirt, right? There’s a breath whenever there’s when you’re first born, there’s a breath, the last breath you take, there’s something in this there’s something that’s alive. It’s symbolized by breath. And so that energy which is in all of us, right, this is where we start to derail because the word goes to become a cya. And is supposed to be this thing, which shows he was in charge. And he was this. In my experience, anything that starts to go towards power and privilege and authority as a justification for its existence is kind of the beginning of the telltale sign that it’s off of this. It’s off the divine, because now you’re just trying to control people now becomes Well, he’s the Messiah. So now we have to follow him. Everyone else is toast. This is the only way right and that just leads to division. But this but the way that Alexander was explaining that in in Christianity first started to expand that what they would do is they would go find when they would go to different cultures different In areas and spread, they would see the Christ and it wasn’t the person wasn’t really even the thing either. It was this spirit within, it’s this. It’s this breath within all of us, right? That, oh, you have this story, you have this ritual, you go through these things like we do. It was more communal, like we know your story. We know that story, versus here’s the right story. And we’re gonna, we’re gonna tell you to take the story you have now, you need to just erase all this stuff off the cave walls, get rid of all your traditions, know your culture, and just adopt this new way. That’s just divide that’s just conquering? Well, I

Brandon Handley 30:32
mean, I think I think you said it in the beginning, right? We can look back over history. Look at all the books of wisdom. Look at all I mean, not even just the books wisdom, we can look at Joseph Campbell’s, you know, the hero’s journey, and we can outline just about anybody anything anywhere with that same story with the same fundamental, whatever’s right. And it’s timeless, right? These stories, these ways of being these thought patterns, there’s all this stuff you’ve been saying like, hey, right now, we think this is the craziest it’s ever gonna be or we’re the most technologically advanced. So that must be guess what hasn’t gotten an implant is your brain. Right? Your brain hasn’t been upgraded? Just, you know, for sure. You know, probably in 2000 years, you haven’t evolved that much as a human being. Right. So I love you brought that up. You know, the other thing you brought up too, is just kind of like the idea of you were saying I think resistance but as you grow, right, but the word I might throw out there’s like resilience, you develop a resilience to as you grow, right? Is that kind of like what’s your look like?

Unknown Speaker 31:38
It’s one of the it’s one of the byproducts is certainly one of the things that this the second during tertiary aspects as you go through these kinds of things. You realize when you’ve been there before, like when the tree is getting bigger, it knows, hey, the storms come in. Last time, I didn’t know anything about it got through. Okay. All right. So it doesn’t mean it’s gonna be easier. It just means that I know, my ability to kind of hold, stay steadfast, maybe greater, because I know, I know this, I know this song, I’ve done another stance, so that you know it like, like a book or like memorization, it’s just you’re familiar with it. So that familiarity, if you allow for it to come in, but also don’t think that it means you know exactly what’s gonna happen next, is this more of what is the essence of resilience? It’s kind of come what may man if your lights go out or be okay, if it’s flooded, we’ll be okay. If it’s a drought, we’re gonna be okay. If it’s a boon if we get a win the lottery, right? I’ll be okay. Because that’s not always guaranteed to be okay. Whether it’s a clinical good or bad thing that you get, right? Well, I

Brandon Handley 32:35
think that’s the other thing you were talking about is this dualism aspect can explain dualism for somebody who’s not familiar with it. So

Unknown Speaker 32:41
dualism started. It’s a nervous, Italian kind of byproduct from the Greek philosophers of kind of breaking things all the way down to their base level, in that we started to look at things from a polarity standpoint, if for everything, there’s an opposite, right? That there’s this idea that plus minus Yes, no good, bad. And that there’s this, it’s a tendency we have in ourselves to kind of limit the perspective of what we’re looking at real in regards to a situation or something or how we measure it. And we can even see it when you see someone like technology around, you know, polarity, and stuff like that, in terms of electricity and things of that nature. And so there’s this, there’s this tendency, and there’s also this human tendency to kind of break things down that simply. And the problem is we forget, as we break down the human being into like, Oh, it’s just atoms or just protons, neutrons or protons and electrons, it’s kind of it’s, that’s an atomic level kind of idea of right what we learn in school, there’s plus and minus, and if there’s more or minus than Plus, it’s a negative charge. And if there’s a positive charge over here, they come together, because positive opposites attract, and we kind of hear all this stuff. So we start to kind of really differentiate everything we think we know, in terms of what it is and what it could even be, is having one or the other. Right? And so then it becomes this, I mean, even think about it, if you just everyone takes a step back, look at the things that they look at that they were college rivalries, there’s kind of one primary rivalry is always them versus us, or, you know, man and woman, or, you know, hate and love, just just emanates in everything that we do. And what’s coincidentally is that the other person had this massive impact on me as a lady by the name of Janet Williams and Janet Williams wrote, she introduced on this other podcast called Nomad apophatic theology, and it’s not even the right way to look at it. And what it tries to posit and there’s a really, it’s really hard to describe, because it doesn’t have a description, but it does is a little bit what you’re alluding to. It’s both good and bad. It’s both but it’s neither. But it’s so it’s, it’s like part of this is the idea of where you kind of go to with all this kind of introspect is around God. So God is all things that is in everything, but God has nothing God is both but God is neither. And then it’s the idea that even if it how we think we can even understand and conceive certain things like the universe or even the divine did it’s anyone that tells you they know God or what God is. It’s not I don’t mean this to be insulting, it’s just I think it’s it’s this part of the journey of it. It’s just going to be incomplete. And that even what we think it is, you have these experiences, I saw God or I felt God’s presence. And I like what I talked about, and that we hold in those things become idols. And that the real idea behind telling people not to stay on the idols is even if that experience is with, like, if you’re there, if you’re Moses and God parts of the Red Sea and saves everything, and no brings the Red Sea down on the Egyptians, that’s a pretty stellar experience. If it happens that way. You’re Moses, you’re thinking you can’t get any higher, it can’t get any better than this, right? This is the pinnacle of all that exists. There’s a there’s an element of that, that’s, that that becomes an idol. No, I

Brandon Handley 35:36
think i think i think that too. It’s like we open it up with right, you’re the vessel through which the universe God creation acts, right, with, when I start to say that this is me doing it, then then I start to I start to limit what is possible, right, I start to set up like all these blinders and everything else where whereas, you know, if I start to just say, hey, the The only reason any of this is happening is because of, you know, divine source flowing through me and, you know, helping guide me, right. So when you start to think that you’re at the pinnacle of anything in your life, I mean, again, you you’re starting to throw up a limit. This is just me, you know, kind of spitballing right, but you know, you start to, you start to put limitations on yourself.

Unknown Speaker 36:21
Yeah. And it’s, it’s something that that goes into one of the things, there’s eight fundamentals with these eight areas of what they call cognitive dissonance. And these eight biases, and one of them is called the errors of framing is this is this idea that you’ve that what you think you’ve known so far as to what frames everything? And what what creates the structure, it’s out there that you, that’s all there is, and there’s not a possibility for something more. And part of the reason that he studies it is around innovation. So in terms of terms of actual innovation, both technically on a personal level, or anywhere else biases will keep you from seeing what could what could be possible. So that’s one of those areas made me think of that is their idea of errors of framing, and part of it is like, does a fish know that it’s in water? Or if it does, is it you know, it’s good? It’s kinda one of these things, if you don’t know, what else is here, or you think that what is there is all there is, or you’ve been told, right? There’s nothing else out there for you, Brandon, you’ll never, you can never go past this city line, or you can never nothing that you can’t go past this area. And it becomes a self limiting belief, because that’s what you’ve been told. And it’s part of that frame, then it’s, if you don’t trust it, it’s not safe. You’re not you’re not risky, just for the sake of it. But don’t don’t limit, like I said, Don’t limit the ability. And it’s, you know, look, I can’t be an opera singer, I know that. You can’t, there has to be some reason this, this goes back into the balance of things around just from a pro beneficial effects to harmony. In those three questions. You know, if I sing, it’s not gonna be harmonious, literally. But if I can connect with people on a personal level, work with them and go through life with them, there’s, there’s a human harmony that you can create as well. Right.

Brandon Handley 37:49
Do me a favor, like, you know, so we’re talking all this a lot, a lot of theory here a lot of just kind of inner work a lot of ways that we have felt what is something that you know, would would be some practical application to give somebody who’s listening to some of what we’ve learned throughout this time?

Unknown Speaker 38:06
I think the part that always catalyzes me, or is a catalyst for me is to take take an argument, take a subject, take a perspective, that is that, you know, is is fundamentally different from yours, as you can imagine, and go listen, purposely fine not to counter what I said about dualism, but it’s more of the context around if I’m having a hard time, I just don’t understand what drives didn’t have to be something opposite or something you’re against. It could just be I don’t understand what drives what is the deal with, you know, well, hobby ism, and Islam. And what’s the deal there? Why would that was that was what goes on bin Laden was if I remember correctly, that was part of his sector, what is the deal with name, your favorite subject, your name or area or something that challenges you that causes you or you at least has the potential to stern you and maybe it’s anything you’ve said, I will never change my mind about that. I will, because I, I walked the earth and said, I would never walk into a church for any other reason than a funeral or a wedding. When I did, I’d want to leave just as fast as I got in there. And that was my way for a long time. But when you’re when I had to take a step back and go look at this differently, like is this something that turmoil and again, it’s going to create turmoil, but that’s where the greatest opportunity is for growth doesn’t mean you have to step all the way into it. But if you if you, if you just stay in the echo chamber, you just stay with the rhythm that you’re used to, if you just stay in that pattern, you know, and you’ll go out and branch out, especially if it’s something that’s different, or unique, or in that opposite, but just a different frequency than what you’re used to. Then you never say that’s why travel is so important. That’s why and I don’t just mean travel like Europe, or you know, some jungle in Asia. If you’ve never been to New Jersey, go to New Jersey, go to go to you know, Seattle, go to Chicago, go to Austin, Texas, you know, go to these places, big and small and just in feel no in if it’s uncomfortable, right if it’s and I get this way. I mean, I went with my wife this probably about a year ago. We went to there’s a pride parade, gay pride parade here and we have some friends of ours and we went to church with them. They wanted to do the big free dad hugs and free mom hugs things. And we went and did that. And you talk about being out of your comfort zone. I mean, you know, look, I’ve never had an issue with it. I was in the Navy. I don’t believe in any of that violence, or, you know, look, I don’t understand it, like not even for for a moment. I can’t relate. And I do think that’s more of a detriment. I’ll get to that in a second, if you want to talk about that. But I heard something in relation to that. Anyway, you talk about different man, you walk out, you go, and you walk up and down the streets of Houston, Texas, that are filled with people for Pride Parade, and you are, you know, you’ve never experienced that life or knowing about that world. It’s going to challenge you, and a lot of ways and I think that discovered we tend to run away from it, if you can hold and you can stay steadfast. And yes, it may be uncomfortable, and it doesn’t mean you’re gonna like it at end of the day. But it will change you, I think it will change you in my experience. Rarely is it changing you for for the worse, for lack of a better word.

Brandon Handley 40:53
That’s a great story. I love that, you know, you kind of put yourself out there into a situation where you were uncomfortable, but apparently you must have saw, like, you know, some beauty in it right? You must have saw some benefit. And you may not you don’t have to understand it in order to look, you don’t have to believe it for it to be true. Right. And you don’t have to understand it. To for to participate in it. So and I love that what you’re saying here is, rarely do you put yourself into something like that, and opportunity for growth and it comes out poorly. Right. Right. That’s awesome. So you know, where where were you, you know, we met and over here at come to the table podcasts, right? Is that something you’re still running? Or if you’re spinning into something new? Where can somebody get a little bit more? Sure, McCoy.

Unknown Speaker 41:47
So right now I said a couple different things. So the podcasts that come to the table, I hit my 100th conversation, there was a number that popped in my head back in February. And then I used part of the pandemic to kind of get there and kind of round it off, I had to take a real hard look internally and realize it was more my journey than it was really doing it for the listener if I was going to be quite honest, gotcha. It was a sobering thing that I was kind of railing against the, the structure of like, I have to do all these things in a structured way. This kind of free flowing stream of consciousness consciousness kind of thing, just I just saw it, it filled me with 100 stories of people, plus all the other ones, all the other stuff, it just, it was just a chorus of, of the mercy of life of Breath of just everything. So it’s in it continues to have a significant impact on my life. Today’s the fruit, if you will, continues to be born. This is a good example. But I also realized that I needed to it kind of run its course and there’s some other stuff that was coming. I got a friend of mine who’s gonna show real quick before we jump on to the next piece

Brandon Handley 42:45
talk about that, because that can be a real challenge. For some people, it sounds to me like you found a pivot point. Or you found a point where it’s just like, Alright, this, this is filled its role in my life, right? Because you got a lot of people that are like, Oh, you got a, you got to see it to the end. And or maybe I’ll tell you, I had a big I had a big problem with, um, when I stopped doing father for the rest of us, right? Because I had attached my identity to that, right. And I was like, oh, man, I’ve built this community. I’ve done this and what do I do? And you know, it was tough to break away from that. So talk a little bit about that right, first first occurs to start it up, and then the curse the stop it.

Unknown Speaker 43:19
Yeah, I think it’s definitely much harder to stop it. I mean, it’s, it’s when you dive in, you’re naive in a way, you’re not sure what’s going on. But when I think you’re realizing that it’s time to walk away, and it’s not. Yeah, you don’t like it necessarily. I mean, I didn’t really like it. And like you said, you put so much into it, you put heart and soul and you’re wanting things and just the amazing conversations of people that you’ve come across. If we just take the time, I didn’t have anybody famous in my pockets ever. But I would tell anybody 100 times out of 100 go listen to Brad spot bill this, there’s wisdom in his words back then even and I think the other part that makes podcasting so amazing, which may make it a little easier to walk away from sometimes they’re all still out there for people to discover. And people will and this is where I just trust a spirit and divine will bring people to the point where they can listen to something based on when it’s necessary when it can serve them and help them but also realize that I could do a better job of setting the table, if you will. And also he also needed a little bit of you got to get some time. Give yourself some time to decompress, and some time to process that kind of stuff. Yeah, it’s like drinking from a firehose you’re doing one episode a week, hours and hours and hours editing and, you know, it’s it’s like drinking from a firehose and sometimes you ventually got to turn it off for a little bit. Yeah,

Brandon Handley 44:32
absolutely. Absolutely. I know that a I forgotten how much effort it is to really be involved in it. Right. Dylan? This is taken a considerable amount of effort. I’m loving it, and I’m enjoying it, but uh, I did forget for a minute, just how much time can can be involved with it. Okay, so then you’re looking at this I mean, if I understand correctly, too, then you’re looking towards a new new space. Is that right?

Unknown Speaker 44:53
So yeah, so one to two areas. One actually got hired professionally to host a podcast and oil and gas talking about The environmental, social and governance issues within the industry is I’m currently working on that I have a co host with me, it’s like a true show like there’s developed, it’s, it’s really, really coordinated, complete opposite of what the other one was. I mean, it’s very structured, has conversation, but it’s got three parts. It’s it’s like a chorus. I mean, it’s there’s a lot to put together. That is one of my guests is a political theologian, Steven Backhouse, who was instrumental in my kind of my deconstruction around nationalism, which is a whole nother part of the story. But he reached out to myself and another guy that we know to help him start this podcast called 10th theology. And it’s just about renewing the renewing the political imagination or renewing the imagination, just as somebody who’s a follower of the way, they’re not even a Christian, it’s this get to where you know, you’re your lead, or you’re following this way versus it, the big crux of it, just to kind of put it out there is also around the fundamental what we call fundamental evangelical Christians that are kind of dominating the conservative politics, the United States, it seems to be kind of almost like that. Everybody’s assumption is if you’re a Christian, I mean, I’m a white 46 year old Christian, technically from Texas, right. So I was like, Okay, well, then you must vote for you must have to vote for Donald Trump. You gay. I

Brandon Handley 46:08
mean, you gotta be Republican. Right? You

Unknown Speaker 46:10
can’t you hate gays, you Although run the whole gamut. And oh, my gosh, there’s a lot of people that are like waving the flags going, please don’t do that. Please don’t do that. Sure. Yeah. And so it’s challenging that narrative, as well as the internal narratives that we have. Because it’s not like, again, it’s not. This is where dualism comes into it. The answer isn’t for the Republican Party to go away. The answer isn’t for you, angelical Christians to go jump in a lake? The answer isn’t for liberals to die or liberals. It’s just not right. It’s not an answer. Right. Have you seen this historically? I mean, you find me a place where there’s where you eliminate all certain ethnicity, type, gender, religion, whatever. Show me where an elimination of that has led to prosperity? Yeah,

Brandon Handley 46:52
I don’t think elimination does it acceptance, does it? Well, man. Look, I always enjoy our conversation. I’m sure we could chat about quite a few other things. But you know, what would like one parting piece before you today to leave everybody with

Unknown Speaker 47:08
you? I know you like to ask them. When did you become first aware of yourself?

Brandon Handley 47:11
Yeah, that’s a good one. Sure.

Unknown Speaker 47:13
I was about six years old, I was going down the street called Murphy road in Missouri city, right outside of Houston, I can almost take you specifically toward that spot was and I remember, I just kept saying to myself as a very young person, who am I who am I, me, me, me. And I found myself kind of this understanding of your own consciousness, your understanding of your own self around what that means. And I do think there’s an is a very young person, absolutely ill equipped, and had no support structure to help me process that. And so I kind of put that voice to bed for a while. And it’s been a long time. kind of let it out a little bit. I think in the shower, that one day, it’s always there. But you’re kind of letting the world the voice win. And be domineering. And I think I would just encourage people to listen to that voice in their head that they’ve had in it those things that they think are cuckoo, or the things that they think are surely this is not something’s wrong, you know, I mean, if it if it starts to become part of an inner journey of awareness, yeah, it’s again, it’s scary, and it’s Rocky and it becomes really, really weird Twilight Zone music kind of stuff. But I think that’s, that’s the point. That’s one of the areas that we’re supposed to is that realization of self are and what it is, I think those that allows for us to embrace all these other things we hear about whether it’s giving of oneself or its community, or how do we sit at a table truly with somebody because we say all this stuff, like it’s easy, but when you’re actually sitting there with somebody and they’re looking at you going, No, Brandon, I can’t stand x kind of people because they’re all this or it you know, those that what about what about what about this? The biggest argument what what do you do about something breaks in your house? What about this? What about rapists? What about what about all the hundreds of the border that disappeared? You know, two years ago that somehow didn’t you’re only there for a little bit? Or? What if What if the democrats win the election? What are you gonna do about that? Right, because you’re just, you always have an argument to put that but that voice away, right, not listen to it, and then not embrace it. I would just encourage people to do so even if it’s crazy, even feels odd and weird, and it’s not gonna be like the movies. Yeah, it’s

Brandon Handley 49:14
not gonna be like the movies. It’s not gonna be like the movies. Well, Sean, thank you so much for partnering with that one, too. And like you said, right, to become aware at such a young age and not have the system support for that. That’s look man that’s that’s that’s where I found myself at 40 right so becoming aware and maybe you know, to your point like maybe re becoming re aware I don’t know right? reborn right type of thing and, and recognizing it and instead of shoving it away like this is the moment now to accept that that is who you are, right framework or not, but this again, this podcast, you know, check out, come to the table podcast and look for places where what you’re actually Experiencing fits a framework. I actually, again, this is something I said last week on a podcast that I put out there. I wasn’t. I don’t know if that’s true for you or not. I wasn’t out there consuming all this information looking to have the experience. I had the experience and then I had to go look for the information so that I could understand it. Yes. So thank you so much, man. Appreciate you for being on today.

Unknown Speaker 50:23
Man. I appreciate what you’re doing. Keep it Keep up the good work and you keep it going, brother. Thanks for listening to the spiritual

Unknown Speaker 50:35
spiritual. Be sure to follow

Unknown Speaker 50:38
us on Facebook and on our website does spiritualdope.co

Transcribed by https://otter.ai