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Without watering down your faith.

Great conversation with Cory Walker as we discuss being groomed for church leadership, leading a community… and leaving it all behind as his path diverted from the expectations from others.

http://www.churchbeentheredonethat.com/

Brandon Handley 0:00
54321 Hey there spirits of dope. It is Brandon Handley and today we are on with Corey Walker, who is the author of boiling down your religion without watering down your faith. Cory spent about 20 years being a minister correct me if I’m wrong anywhere in here this but a minister in an Pentecostal, Pentecostal I don’t even know how to say it right. Like I said so in a Pentecostal church and stepped out after 20 years of being in a leadership role and kind of took refuge in his own heart on my call, and the sides live just outside of the church confines and more in like I said, john Hart said about right Corey

Cory Walker 0:53
Davis some sort of modular.

Brandon Handley 0:55
So you know, Cory I always like to say that we are Are vessels of the divine right? The Creator speaks through us. Right. And and when people are turning in tuning into this podcast, they’re tuning in to hear a message that is being delivered through you to them. And my question to you, as we start this thing off is what what is, what is something somebody out there needs to hear today that can only come through you?

Cory Walker 1:26
Wow, great question.

Cory Walker 1:30
Well, there’s several different things. I could go here, but the long and the short of it is don’t be afraid to make a change, if you feel like it, if it’s following your heart. So many of us were raised that particular way. We’re taught what to believe, and taught how to be taught what to think without being really taught how to think. And you if you’re just believing doctrine or someone else’s beliefs, and you’re trying to hold to those instead of actually listening in Your heart towards the divine. And my case, God would be wanting to say to you that you could easily spend years following something that that you end up feeling like you’ve wasted time later on. So don’t be afraid to make a change. I guess that’s my, that’s my off the cuff response.

Brandon Handley 2:16
Sure, sure. I love that. I mean, and you did right, you made the made this change to 20 years and I think the the line that comes to mind is you know, don’t put your ladder up against the wrong wall right through and and that there’s really nothing. And I think that a lot of people are afraid to kind of go chase this thing, but what you’re saying is, even even after maybe climbing halfway up the ladder, maybe you’ve already made it all the way up to the top, but

Unknown Speaker 2:47
it’s okay to make a change. It’s okay to climb

Brandon Handley 2:49
back down and go climb another ladder. Is that what I’m hearing you say?

Cory Walker 2:53
Yeah, definitely, especially if the letter sounds or letters keeping more consistent, like what you’re feeling in your heart. I just know. You know, it’s Been a pastor for so many years, I met with so many people talk with so many other leaders who, who knew how to toe the company line. But in private, they would say, Well, what do you think about this, though, that doesn’t really sit with what we believe and what we teach. But it’s like they had their own private belief system outside of the public one that they were telling everyone else. And you just can’t do that for extended period of time without, you know, driving yourself crazy. Because the inconsistency just couldn’t live that kind of dualism. And so you try to modify what it is you teach and teach the parts of what you have what you’ve learned and believed over the years that still ring true with you, and leave the other parts out of the fact is the whole. The whole last two years, my ministry I never preached even one sermon from the Old Testament part of the Bible, because it seemed to communicate that there was an angry God who was demanding that you behave a certain way. And if you didn’t do you’re in big trouble. And that just didn’t jive with the message of Jesus, which was what’s taught in the New Testament to me, and I understand the theological demands sticks that people do that night to neatly tie the two together because I went to Bible college but that doesn’t mean that the average Joe and common sense of really why don’t we are under grace, why do I have to do and you fill in the blank whatever it is your local church is telling you you have to do in order to be a good Christian.

Brandon Handley 4:18
Sure, sure. And I think the thing is, it’s a shame that Christianity’s you know, kind of been fractured in so many different ways away from the the, the true meaning of the messaging right now. And what the hell do I know though? I really don’t know too much. I don’t I haven’t been involved with too much of it. But what I do know is that when I have a conversation with you know, somebody such as yourself that you know, is really just been immersed in it and and they find Jesus or I think, what do they call it like a, you know, the Jesus consciousness, right? It’s kind of like, you know, one of the things that gets tossed out there is what’s in those books is kind of like truth and from the heart, but how its interpreted and spun back around is either liberal or kind of fit fitting the needs of the organization that’s driving it.

Cory Walker 5:19
Now let’s move on been so true. You know, parts of the specifically if you read the gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and john, telling me all about the life of Christ in His, the economy of Christ, if you want to love your neighbor, pray for your enemies. Love those who persecute you go the extra mile turn the other cheek, those kind of things rang really took my heart, but the way in which the church lives out the teachings of Christ, and that’s them together with with a lot of the old, old covenant Old Testament law type, you know, thou shalt nots, and just the whole organizational structure that’s set up to basically support itself. I just reached a point when I realized that you Man formed these nonprofit organizations that we call churches to supposedly help the members who are the people in their spiritual walk. But somewhere along the way, the organization starts to expect the members to do what’s in its best interest and spin it

Brandon Handley 6:17
around. I would like to I would like to kind of caveat it right. This has been your right. Yeah. So I mean, because there’s that there’s definitely got to be a couple out there. Right. They all Yeah.

Cory Walker 6:29
Yeah. I don’t want to categorize across the board is my experience. Yeah, with the with eight or 10 churches that I was either attending or on staff at over the years, the older the organization, the more likely it is that the the, the principles get minimized, and the traditions get emphasized. And as a result, it’s about self sustaining many times instead of about really bringing life and health to, you know, the average individual and once I realized that then I just took Couldn’t, I just couldn’t myself, continue to be a part of one. And I’ve even thought now that I’m not on staff someplace or a pastor someplace that, well, maybe I should just attend this church or that church, and I’ve stepped into a couple for service here there. And it just doesn’t take long when you’ve been in leadership for a while for you to start hearing the same familiar, you know, course and tone of what it is we’re supposed to do. And it was supposed to is that kind of wore me out, I think.

Brandon Handley 7:27
Yeah, no, that makes sense, right? It’s kinda like all the shoulds and codes that we could be doing. Well, let’s, let’s roll it back here for a second. So let’s tell, you know, tell anybody listening today that, you know, what type of church were you? a minister at and a leader and then what does that even mean? Right, because like I said, we talked about Pentecostals. Let’s talk a little bit about what that is and what that’s built on top

Cory Walker 7:54
of, if you could, sure. Yeah. Well, essentially, within Christianity you have two veins. You have Catholics Protestants. And in the Protestant vein, you have thousands, literally thousands of what we call denominations, which are different or different organizations, like Baptist or Methodist or Pentecostal, different Pentecostal denominations. But the bottom line is, each one of them has a different set of standards and rules for themselves that they believe slightly different than the other ones. And the fact is, all of them would tell you that they were originally formed because some people who were a part of some other organization said, Well, we think we got a new enlightenment or we got just a little bit better understanding. So we’re going to form our own. And so I grew up in those in most of those denominations in America anyway, sit within a category called have called evangelicals, and many times, also called fundamentalists, and those are people who have a belief that there’s a divinely inspired scripture, and in our case, the Bible, and that is to be literally interpreted and applied to your own life and there things in the scripture that I have discovered that just didn’t seem to sit well with literally applying them to my own life as an example that were like there’s a there’s a passage in the Old Testament that talks about one of the prophets, I believe it was Elijah, what could have been Elijah, I was getting confused. And it says that, that these this prophet was walking in the woods and have a group of juveniles it says are teenagers came out and started teasing him because he had a bald head, he didn’t have any hair. And he says that he called down a curse upon them, and a bear around out of the woods and devoured some of them and wounded the others. So this was the man of God that we’re supposed to be you know, maybe patterning our lives after looking up to her as a fundamentalist your thinking was, I could get so special that it wouldn’t be okay for kids to even tease me about my bald head. And if I was upset about it, I could call on a curse upon them and kind of wild animal could come and attack them. Did this didn’t sit well with my concept of God or with my understanding of Christ and his philosophy of loving your enemies and things like that, but yet, fundamentalists have to weave all those stories together in the Bible and all those truths and things that are there and try to apply them to their daily lives just becomes quite a quite a conundrum.

Brandon Handley 10:22
So they’re a fundamentalist, and they’re applying it literally. They’re, they’re not using like that in any symbolic terms,

Cory Walker 10:31
or allegory. Yeah, it’s one of those things. That’s not really how it’s taught. And most of the most of the denominations it’s taught as this was an Old Covenant time where God related to man in a different way than he does now. And so things have been different back then than they do now. And that you know, kind of how we smooth it over and help people feel better about you know, the Sodom and Gomorrah and the gods flooding the earth and you know, everyone but Noah being killed There’s no assembly being killed, things like that. But I remember as a, as a father of young children go into, you know, our evangelical church and just thinking, I don’t want to send my kids to Sunday school because I don’t want anybody to teach them some of these stories. And I don’t even know, I don’t know how the, I don’t know how the Sunday school teachers going to teach them these stories, or they’re going to teach him, you better behave, or God’s gonna get really mad at you, and rain down fire and brimstone on you, you know, or turn you into a pillar of salt or whatever the other story is in the Old Testament. So, you know, fundamentalists do believe in a literal interpretation of Scripture. And therefore those things would not be allegory or symbolic things that actually happened. And God was relating to man, I personally now, I still hold great reverence for the scriptures and find a lot of truth in there. But I just see them as being written. While there’s a lot of truth, they’re written from a man’s point of view. And man was walking in the light that he had at the time and the culture was different, and therefore, even some places like Like even one of the even one of the passages where supposedly Moses wrote the passage, it was handed down through generations of verbal, you know, communication that eventually recorded but it says right in the passage, Moses was the greatest of leaders at all times. So they’re like, let’s he writes about himself for Charlie aggrandized themselves? Or is this really you know, what’s going on? So, it’s just, you know, you just gotta understand that people are just, you know, culture was different back then. And it was recorded from man’s point of view, and not necessarily, from God’s words, to my ears to the pin on the paper type of inspiration.

Brandon Handley 12:37
Sure, yeah, I definitely get that I definitely get that. You know, but I got a wonder too, like, you know, so, this was also, you know, book that was compiled, you know, a library books, right, compiled, you know, way back when, and the translations over time as well. Right. And then one of the things that kind of pops up. I’m a fan of this guy, bill donohue, who, who, you know, has some pretty cool stuff on on YouTube. But he talks about, like, you know, what they were saying then could be real similar to so I’m hearing you talk about this, you know, called the curse and the bear chews them down, you know? And I’m thinking of how he would translate it and say it, it’s how we would say shooting the bull. Right? What was the other meaning of you know, calling that bear down on them? Right, you know, was that the bear within the man coming out and like, kind of raging out against some of those? Those are the types of things right, it’s really kind of a formula and you gotta you gotta wonder exactly, you got to really wonder and kind of play with it because I don’t personally feel like this was a book that was written to instill fear so much. Higher divinity.

Cory Walker 13:51
Yeah, I think it’s it was written, to help us to understand, in fact is to understand what God was like and, in fact, Jesus Himself So as you know, he comes incarnate. It’s like God in the flesh to show us what God was really like. But then he goes around loving the least of these, if you will, and hanging out with people that it wasn’t cool to hang out with prostitutes and tax collectors and all these people the riffraff of the day. And he really makes the religious people are really mad about it, you know, the Thera sees and the sadness is they’re getting all ticked off all the time. Because Jesus not really interested in in hanging with them. He’s hanging out with the least of these. So I think you see, at least from the perspective and the story of Christ that the gods are more concerned about the little guy than he is how spiritual react or you know how much we’ve got our ducks in a row.

Unknown Speaker 14:42
Now, fair enough, fair enough.

Brandon Handley 14:43
So, Pentecostal, what does that mean? Was it meant to mean to be a Pentecostal or Penn is a Pentecostal or Pentecost? Yeah,

Cory Walker 14:49
sir. Pentecostal. Um, yeah, essentially Pentecostalism started around 1900 and it’s a form of denomination several denominations of one of Christianity, that, that believes in the teachings of the Day of Pentecost, which is found in the book of Acts in the Bible. And it talks about a variety of gifts that God gives to man’s spiritual gifts. But Pentecostals focus in on one, which is called speaking in tongues, and it’s one of the more controversial ones. Or if you may have heard of, you know, holy rollers or people swinging from the chandeliers or wildfire, and all this weird kind of stuff in Christianity over the years, and over the last hundred hundred years or so, it’s all about Pentecostals, and it’s about having an emotional experience with God. And as a result, feeling like you’re greater connected to him, and I can really value and understand that desire, though. It’s also very centered around worship, which in modern context is, is the singing and playing of music, to bring reverence to God and to honor God and to talk about how good he is. But it’s all about what kind of experience in a Pentecostal church what kind of experience you can have when you Get together. It makes you feel good emotionally goosebumps on your arms, you know feeling like God’s presence is right there with you in the room. And all this stuff is inside emphasize you know from our kids church, we’re little kids and go into special special church service for them on Sundays right on up through the youth groups run up through the adult service. And so, you know, God really showed up is what we’d say if you felt you know, something emotional happening when when the worship was going on, or when the preacher was preaching or whatever the case may be.

Brandon Handley 16:31
Sure, no, I mean, I can I can definitely appreciate that. I know that actually just did a did a piece on the word numinous. Right? And it really sounds like it kind of speaks to the same type of space right where you’ve got connection with God or an experience. Um,

Unknown Speaker 16:50
and so,

Brandon Handley 16:52
I love I love it. It’s just sounds to me like it may have been

Unknown Speaker 16:56
over over exalted.

Cory Walker 16:58
Now. What came to focus yeah became the focus instead of me being one way to experience God, maybe it’d be the only way.

Brandon Handley 17:06
Sure not and I can I can definitely appreciate that. It’s very interesting. So the you said that there was a number of gifts and one of them speaking in tongues? What are some of the I mean, I don’t know the Bible myself, right. So how does somebody have the gifts that maybe, maybe some people aren’t aware of?

Cory Walker 17:22
Well, the Bible speaks of different spiritual gifts. And one particular case there’s a short list and then scattered throughout the rest of the Scriptures, that mentions other gifts. Like there’s a gift of spiritual gifts of gifting, where maybe God empowers you to make money, so that you can give that money towards his plans and his services. But then the fancy ones, if you will, the gifts that people were always hoping to have were like words of knowledge and words of wisdom, which would mean you’re speaking in a conversation with somebody and you have, I would call it you have a thought drop into your head and you share that thought with them and then boom, they’re suddenly hit. just overwhelmed was oh my gosh how did you know that or or contacts incredible how did you you know have to there’s no way you could have come by this on your own like God just dropped information into my head to share with you know almost on a profit basis and gift the process he was one of those things as well which was kind of speaking on God’s behalf more so than speaking to predict the future but so there’s all these different gifts and you were told you know this The Bible tells you to seek seek spiritual guests especially those that that build build up the body build one another up. But once again and this is coming across like Korea is the the tainted former pastor that is but but it seems like people are always looking for what we have made them look the best because all this happens most of these things I think God intended for them to be lived out in our daily lives. But something in modern Christianity is that we jam. We instead of seeing the churches who we are every day we see the church as a place we go In an event that we attend, so what happens with the spiritual gifts, what’s important is what happens when you get together. And therefore you’re doing it almost on a platform situation where you’re in front of others. And the man’s tendency to want to look good and pride gets in there. And you know, you never can tell what might happen. So, I chose doors. I’m not going to but I can tell stories.

Brandon Handley 19:23
No, I appreciate that. Right? Like so I mean, it as you’re kind of listing these off, right? without me being a member of a church or without me kind of going through the Bible, you know, this gift of giving is something that speaks to me, right, like, if you’re willing to give to others, then it’s my interpretation or my thought process that you know, the universe is going to continue to give to you, right, God’s gonna give you if you’re giving, you’re going to receive, right. And that’s, that’s kind of one way that I look at it, right. And then as you’re talking about these words of knowledge and wisdom, you know, words of wisdom. It can’t But make me think of the Akashic Records stuff. Right? So just kind of linking like different different. Yeah. Yeah. different spaces and, you know, gift the prophecies. I mean, I don’t know. Right. I think that i think that’s everyone, right? I think that it kind of, to me that kind of rolls back up into, you know, speaking in tongues, right? I just got goosebumps kind of thinking about it, right? Like, it rolls back into feeling that emotion and knowing that you’re kind of, you’re speaking your truth, right. But as you kind of roll back all the way back over to here, like, you know, each person kind of comes up with like, their own epiphany is like, oh, I’ve got a better way to explain it, you end up like, many, many thousands of different ways to kind of embrace and feel connected to God. Right. And, and for each person, I think that experience is going to be individual.

Cory Walker 20:50
Yeah, and I think that’s good because you know, a variety of theory, a variety of belief systems and a variety of ways, is a good thing because it allows each person to find The one that connects best with them. My biggest challenge over the years had been the the competitive nature that sets in. I remember growing up and there’s sometimes a god churches, which is the domination I was a part of, and they kind of cost the combination and they didn’t specifically teach it but you know, my wife grew up in the same denomination and both of us had a conversation where just kind of came away feeling like, you know, if you were a Christian, but you weren’t Assemblies of God, you weren’t quite getting it. All right, and, and you probably know that make it to heaven, but he probably wouldn’t get as many accolades as we would, because we were a part of this something of God. And so I went off, I went off to Bible College. I know that that wasn’t specifically taught in any of the classes, but I came away with the same feeling like we’re the elite. You know, we’ve we’ve got it going on. But one of the pastors in the church that I used to serve that used to say, he used to get up a couple times a year before Easter, the week before Easter, and the week before Christmas, and you get up and announce to the whole congregation, hey, you know, there’s people who only go to church twice a year on Christmas and Easter. And he said, You should invite people to come to our church on those days. Because if they’re going to go to church on twice a year, they should at least come to church or maybe something good could happen in their life, no kind of little dig at the other church. And it’s like they weren’t, you know, good enough, or whatever it is that that had crept in to almost every church scenario that I’ve been a part of, and I think it’s just a part of nature of man. Okay, okay.

Brandon Handley 22:24
No, I mean, that’s, that’s all fair. Right. So, you know, for so you’re a part of this for like, 20 years, last couple parts. You know, you just kind of started to fall out of it. And I’ve read briefly through your book. And you mentioned a book where you kind of helped you to kind of start separating away. Right. And you’ve shown it to one of your leaders. And he got it was like, Yeah, I don’t buy into this because it didn’t sound like it match with his way of thinking. Right,

Unknown Speaker 22:51
exactly. So

Brandon Handley 22:52
I’d love to hear a what was the book that kind of, you know, sure. It kind of changed your mind a little bit. What was that book

Cory Walker 23:01
I’m going to try to get the name right here. It’s a misunderstood God, and the lies that religion tells about him. I think the author was Darren Hufford. And he was a former pastor as well. But he was talking basically the same way that I have been, which is that there’s this God who loves you unconditionally, and has, has bent over backwards to make a way for you to connect with them. But yet religion spends a story, that’s something different, that seems undesirable to many people. And as a result, a lot of folks who want to find God don’t think that they can. And it just really started me thinking, the challenging some of the concepts and really, you know, you read a book and something rings true with you on the page and like, Oh, yeah, I’ve been thinking that for years. I just kept having that, you know, those kind of moments as I was reading the book with my wife, and I was like, wow, and then we just dove into, I don’t know, one point time, was right when I first started reading electronically, I had a I had a book reader at the time, and I remember And that period of time over about a year and a half that we digest, like 60 some different books, all around the same topics of church and what God intended for the church to be and spirituality and different things like that. Now, I’m a part of a men’s book group and we read, you know, a book a month and discuss it on Monday nights and we’re reading stuff that’s outside of the vein of Christianity, which I’ve always found to be very interesting because when you read outside of what’s your typical goto and you find the same truth elsewhere, then it starts to make you think that it’s because the author of the things that you hold dear, likely was the inspire some of the other things that you’re finding elsewhere in college. They called it all truth is God’s truth. Doesn’t matter where you find it. It says true.

Brandon Handley 24:50
Yeah, you know, and I agree with that, right. It’s it’s really interesting to find all these nuggets of truth everywhere. Right. It doesn’t really matter what you’re you find yourself reading, you start to see, like you’re saying kind of the same vein of how even movies, you know, show shows I’m watching. I’m like, Is anybody else seeing what I’m seeing here? Because it’s so it’s so obvious to me the story that’s being told. And again, though, it’s really like we started this, we start this podcast off with, you know, Cory, I’d like you to say something that only somebody else out there is gonna hear and understand. Right? It’s it’s kind of like I the way I’m watching that movie, or series, maybe nothing like what it was intended to be delivered. Right? Right. But I’m receiving it in a certain way, because that’s how I’ve set myself up

Cory Walker 25:45
now. But there’s a divine source that’s enter weaving truths throughout all genres and all aspects of life because because that divine source that I like to call God wants us to understand him and understand life. So So much that he’s willing to inspire people that don’t even know that they’re being inspired by them to share truth

Unknown Speaker 26:06
in a way that Okay,

Brandon Handley 26:08
again, like I mean, you know, something’s coming through you being spoken through you

Unknown Speaker 26:12
right now, this moment that

Brandon Handley 26:15
is intended for somebody else not even intended for you, for me, right now even intended for me and I love this. So here’s a really interesting book. It’s called horror, right? It’s called the vital center of man by he was a an analyst, the psycho psychological analyst, but he was also a orthodox, practicing Orthodox Christian, but he also spent time and about eight years with Zen masters, right. And, you know, one of the things that this one Zen masters said to them, was, it never occurred to me to keep keep weight to keep in my head what I’ve read If I mainly read the Bible or Buddhist books and prayers, I find that only such things that agree with my own thoughts. And I think that that’s what you and I are saying here is that when we’re reading now we’re like, the books are almost a mirror to what we’ve already learned and know, right? And this has been spoken back to you. And I find I found that was like, an amazing moment, right? When I read that line, I was like, holy shit, because I told my wife, I was like, everything that I’m reading is everything I’m already thinking of, and I’m just looking for the words to properly express it.

Cory Walker 27:31
Yeah, right. Some people and some people would say that you, you draw to yourself. There’s kind of a supernatural principle that you draw to yourself with as you’re looking for. You know, I just recently bought a different car. And the for my work vehicle and the type of card is I’d never really had thought about getting one before but once I got them then suddenly I see everywhere. I mean, every time I turn around, has fallen down the street. So it’s like, I didn’t look someone else’s got another one of those just like I do, I see it in part. parking lots everywhere. It’s like your mind becomes attuned to that which you’re used to or that what you’re looking for. And I looked for when I decided that’s what I wanted to buy, I was out there looking for him everywhere. And as a result, I’m My mind is turned on to that. I think it’s the same with what you’re saying what it is that you’re thinking and you’re feeling in your heart. And suddenly you start to see it come alive in the pages of books or in the movies or in the newspaper, on television shows or whatever.

Brandon Handley 28:25
It’s everywhere. It’s everywhere. My first my first blog and my first blog and a couple of my first videos was called just a wit You know, this is called the blue car effect. Right You know, they’re looking for a blue car you see him everywhere is exactly what I’m saying. And, and, you know, I often go through just like what you’re saying once you set that question in your mind you know, the answers start coming up for it right you don’t sure we go look and we Google, we do all these things, but it’s almost easier to ask you know, quote, unquote Ask the universe for an answer. Just let it kind of come to you let it show it will show up. Once you have that question for yourself, the answer will show up. Now you can do it again, you can go hardcore and go hit and all the books and put all this pressure and stress on yourself. But chances are, that answer is gonna show up.

Unknown Speaker 29:18
Right? Totally. Yeah.

Brandon Handley 29:21
So, um, you know, so where are you? I mean, what’s it like, now you’ve left? What was the separation? Like, I’d love to hear kind of like what that was like, and, you know, in in that in that scenario,

Cory Walker 29:32
that was like, divorcing everybody that you held dear. Hmm. And having everybody be mad at you, or at least it felt like it anyway. I’m sure part of its interpretation. But you know, when, you know, we kind of we didn’t really spend a story but you know, when we decided to move we moved. We decided to move when we decide to leave church we we moved out of the community we were part of and moved six hours away to a new area, and it had been On our heart to do it anyway. But this new area was very spiritually minded, but not real big on religion. So church attendance is really down here. But you see all kinds of alternative spiritual pursuits going on. And, and that’s kind of what we felt drawn to not that we were going to, you know, go start reading poems or doing something, you know, there was necessarily new age or this or whatever we still consider ourself Christians, we just felt like we wanted to be around non traditional people, because they’d be, you know, they’re not going to be looking down their nose at us because they don’t show up. And so the Pew on Sunday mornings, so it was a difficult time. Even my folks right now still have, I don’t talk about anymore, but I’m sure that they still shake their head like, I can’t believe you know, we raised this young man. And he, you know, felt this call on his life to go become a pastor. And then he did 25 years and now we just build on the whole thing. But what they don’t understand is my philosophy and I shared my book with them, and I hope that they’re gaining understanding but the philosophy is if we are the Church and that is the body of Christ as Christians, and it’s not the building. And it’s not an organization than whether or not we choose to go sit in the Pew on Sunday mornings are not as real as irrelevant. It’s whether or not we’re following the truth of God as expressed through our life and how we treat others on a daily basis. You know, my friend Jeremy messaged me earlier today and he said, What are you doing on this fine Lord’s day? And he was saying a tongue in cheek because for years for a year or so after I stopped attending church, my dad would text me about every few weeks and so on Sundays and say, What are you doing to honor God on this Lord’s day? And I started texting him back and saying, I thought every day was the Lord’s Day. Like we’re supposed to do something special on Sundays, right? But reality was saying, hey, let’s just make every day special and, and how we treat others and, and, and our daily practices is just as important everyday as it is on Sunday mornings.

Brandon Handley 31:56
So I mean, I’m curious. If you You know, kind of going through that separation process, if those are some of the words that you would use to share with others as to why you were leaving?

Unknown Speaker 32:10
Yeah.

Cory Walker 32:13
Most people didn’t ask quite frankly.

Cory Walker 32:17
You know, one of the reasons was, we were moving five, six hours away. So they just don’t know what we do or don’t want or what we don’t do. But the other part was for those who are closer, they grew up in the same kind of fundamentalist belief system. And there’s one particular scripture that says, Don’t forsake gathering together with other believers, as some are in the habit of doing and that that interpreted by every pastor I’ve ever heard, speak meant, make sure you’re in church on Sunday morning. And so when you just choose to say, that’s not, that’s not funny, that’s beneficial. And I don’t want that to be a regular part of my ongoing life, then people just, you know, there’s another practice that just kind of shown you it’s not necessarily intentional. I remember for years People have stopped coming to church and you try to get them to come back and let us not come back. And then you just say, Well, you know, that’s on them, I guess I’ll just minister to the ones who are still here, you know, but you just kind of gave up on them. And there’s a passage of scripture which says, if somebody departs of faith, try to try to turn them back. And then if they, you know, they still claim to be good followers of God, but refuse to do the things which are they’re supposed to be doing. They don’t have anything to do with them. And so I think a lot of Christians have been taught over the years based upon that scripture, that is somebody off the deep end, whether it’s messed up and drugs or alcohol or you know, cheating on their spouse or even just not going to church anymore, that you just kind of don’t have anything to do with them, either. Because somehow it’ll teach them a lesson, or because somehow their disobedience if you will, is going to tank, your spiritual walk. It’s just not a healthy thing. But unfortunately, that’s kind of the way it is a lot of boys.

Brandon Handley 33:54
That’s interesting, right? So, you know, Were you upset at all that nobody asked you You know that you know, get more requests?

Cory Walker 34:02
Yeah, you have a little bit of, it’s probably more grief than anger, just a little more grief, but you invested a lot into relationships, and then people just kind of, you know, part of the move, I’m sure, but that plays something into it. Because when you live six hours away from where you weren’t living, it’s just not convenient to connect in the way that you were before. And if like, oh, Cory and Lisa, his wife just moved off, you know, so Okay, well, I guess we’ll find some new friends. But you know, unfortunately, unfortunately, but I do have several. I have a band of about five brothers that good good men that I’ve known for a number of years and we all stay connected. Fact is, they’ve come down here and visited me multiple times we’ll have a rent a cabin or something and go out on the lake or, you know, sit around the bonfire, you name it, and it’s just been really encouraging time. So.

Brandon Handley 34:54
Okay, so you also mentioned being around people that are spiritually minded, right? What does that what does that mean to you?

Unknown Speaker 35:03
Huh? Yeah, it’s uh

Cory Walker 35:07
it all starts with heart to me. I mean, I’m not a big fan of doctrine, which is philosophies and ideas that we are taught that we follow as much as I am. What’s your heart? How do you? How do you perceive the universe in your case, or God, in my case, is, is wanting you to interact with others? And are you being true to that. And there’s a lot of people around here, even though there certainly would not be considered Christians, by most or even by themselves, that we’re living more of a Christ like life. So how they lived out their heart, then a lot of people that I’ve known in church over the years, because it was about checking the boxes and doing the to do lists, more so than how we treat everybody on a daily basis. So find a lot of people like that and we’re connecting with a lot of them. It’s been it’s been a journey. It’s Rio when you leave behind your paradigm and not just your city, you know, the, the place and the venue in which you were interacting with others is now gone because we don’t attend church, then it becomes really important what you do with your daily life when I’m working with my customers or my friends or working, my kids are working with their co workers or my wife’s interacting with people in the neighborhood, those things become incredibly important because they’re really the only interaction that you have. And that’s where your social life is going to grow from.

Unknown Speaker 36:30
Now I get it. So you know,

Brandon Handley 36:33
I think about Buddhism to one of the big pieces of that is is the community right so sounds to me like you know that that was the community and that was your space. What what are you replacing that with just just work? Have you been able to replace that sense of community anywhere else?

Unknown Speaker 36:55
Have

Cory Walker 36:57
we looked initially first organizations to get into They’re like, Oh, maybe we can find some nonprofit or volunteer this or that or whatever. And nothing seems to be a good fit. And it also is kind of seriously kind of pushing our organizational buttons, because when you’re part of a nonprofit organization for decades, you just learn the politics and stuff that’s behind the scenes. But what I have found Well, if you got time, I’ll give you a quick example. One of my customers just astounds me, I’m a licensed contractor now. I went to do a bathroom remodel. And the day before they, the I showed up, Dave, for I showed up, they were, they found out that his wife had breast cancer, and she was going to have to have a lump removed. And as a result, we were we were just trying to, you know, remodel her bathroom, but she just opened up and shared all this information with man. So I’m sorry, master bathroom. So she’s in there sitting on the bed, and adjacent room looking in while I’m working and just poring over heart and talking to me. And I’m like, well, she didn’t even know I was a former pastor. And I hadn’t even spoken Difficult as a Christian, but I was just listening to what she said, say and kind of just empathizing and trying to help her. And she seemed very appreciative of it. Well, then she goes in for an MRI right before her surgery to make sure that the cancer about spread and it hadn’t. But they found out that her aorta was enlarged, and she’s gonna have to open heart surgery. And so then she A week later, she goes to meet with a surgeon for open heart surgery. And he says, Well, I don’t think this is even operable. And I’d say you’ve got less than five years. And she’s like, Oh, my gosh, so she comes home and she’s just talking to me about all this stuff. And then I just opened the door for us to have conversation about what it means to be alive and what takes place after you die and how none of us really know exactly what that is. But we have to do whatever it is that helps us find peace in the moment. And then I just was able to share with her that I believe in the divine, and that I believe that good things away for us after the fact because because of his goodness, not because of ours and then just loved on her and told her I was praying for her and master if there’s anything we could do to help, and we walked her dog while she was out having surgery and you know, just trying to be a decent human being, and that seems to be more important to me than ever before, because that’s where I’m meeting people. And that’s where I’m making connection. So,

Brandon Handley 39:18
sure, sure. Sounds to me too, like, focusing on the few right, focusing on the present, focusing on the moment. And not not being concerned with like, having to have like, to being good, decent human being. Yeah, right. And does it does it need to be more, but it sounds like your community is kind of like within those that you everybody’s part of your community?

Cory Walker 39:42
Yeah, I always felt like I was felt a little resentful, in fact, because I had this quote, unquote, calling on my life through your minister and it seemed like everybody else had their regular life. And then, and that was it. And I had my regular life and the special calling, which involved me doing all these extra things to go above and beyond. It’s just like, Oh my gosh, how much do I have to give, but now I’m just like, just being a decent human being and your regular life goes a long, long way. And these people we’ve connected with three or four times a year, we’ll have big parties at our house and just invite all my customers and my wife’s friends and different people from the neighborhood over and just, you know, have a chili feed or have this or that and it’s just incredible that people will be walking around living room. So how do you know Cory and Lisa, talking to each other and ask them questions like, wow, we have either been planted here by somebody else, or we have just dropped into this neighborhood and have started to make a difference in the lives of people in our community. And word is getting around the other day. My wife posted I was doing some work on her own house and she posted a picture of me doing the work on her Facebook feed and someone that’s never met either one of us, but who is in the community and is fairly well known. So as you guys are the new power couple. We’re sure glad to have you. Yes, smile. I was like, I don’t know that. We’re Anything special, but it’s good to see that we’re actually making an impact.

Brandon Handley 41:04
That’s great. And I mean, does it feel nice that you’re kind of making this impact without having to feel this extra pressure to do so?

Cory Walker 41:11
Yeah, totally effect is another friend of mine asked the same question a couple days ago. Is it great to be pastor Corey, it’s great to be Cory and still have pastor Corey and I said absolutely candidate, just so much less pressure and, and not having to pour your resources and time and effort into an organization which may or may not be promoting the things that you believe gives you the time and resources to pour into the people that you come across on a daily basis. We were able to help a single mother who was in terrible needy situation a few weeks ago, and we had the money to do it because we weren’t giving 10% of our income to an organization every every week when we got paid, you know, and and for those who believe that that’s what they’re supposed to do. That’s great. I did it for years and it worked for me then but it no longer does. And now I now I look for opportunities to give To help and to be a decent human being to everybody around So,

Brandon Handley 42:04
right, right, I mean, not just not just to the church, right? Yeah, just one specific organization. It’s another, you know, again, you know, I’ve got a buddy who’s a Buddhist Reverend, and he talks a lot to being able to give charity with wisdom, right? And not just not just do it kind of blindly. And yeah, just kind of give away everything just because, but do it with with a sense of wisdom and a sense of knowing that, you know, what you’re giving to is, is from your heart, not just because back to your point to just check a box, right? So, I love that. So, you know, I’m just kind of chuckling to myself, but you know, you know, let’s, let’s say that, let’s say that you’re creating a church. What would that look like to you? Right? What would it be, you know, if you were to spin off, out of all these other thousands of different organizations You know, and maybe you feel like you’ve been touched in a way that maybe some other people hadn’t been? How would you do differently?

Cory Walker 43:08
Well, great question, in fact, is we’ve asked my wife and I’ve asked ourselves this question many times, because one of the things we did not want to do when we left organized Christianity was just to go create a slightly different version of it, that we thought was a little bit better. We just kind of want to set the whole thing aside and try to live out our faith on a daily basis. That being said, you know, when you get up and speak to people on a weekly basis, or maybe multiple times a week for a half your life and then you stop doing it and the largest group to speak to might be three to five people. And that would be on a rare occasion. There’s always an itch that wants to be scratched, to get up and speak to people again. I’ve toyed with potential for some motivational speaking or maybe even a little bit of stand up on occasion, a local club, one of the local clubs turns out just because I have a gift of gab and I enjoy using it but If I were to create something that looked like a church, it would probably just be more like something where we got together on a monthly basis to just swap stories about what was going on in our lives and the good things that we saw taking place. And maybe, you know, 10 or 15 minutes worth of positive, encouraging instruction, towards just being a better human being, that would be the most organized I’d ever want it to be. I’m not renting or owning a facility or you know how to take up an offering or anybody getting a salary from design or anything like that. Just Just humans who consider themselves part of the same community gathering together to recognize that there’s divine presence in our life. And when we follow it, good things happen for us and the people that were around,

Unknown Speaker 44:47
nice, all of that. So

Brandon Handley 44:50
if somebody out there is feeling this kind of divine pull to break away from a life that they’ve always known, you know, how would you How would you want What would you say to that person? How would you help them through that? Right?

Cory Walker 45:03
I’d say give me a call.

Cory Walker 45:06
Actually, my website has a place where you can connect with me if you’re gonna if you’re on that journey, because you’re going to feel alone. And if you just Google non traditional Christian, you’ll get a bunch of stuff that comes up. But none of us really dealt with how to transition out of organizational Christianity at all, was more like, you know, trendy type churches where they have smoke machines and stuff like that, you know, or rock and roll music or whatever, you know, wasn’t really more along the lines of, Hey, I don’t really want to sit in a church on Sunday mornings anymore. And it, you know, I guess, effect is I have several friends who are life coaches, and I’ve done a little bit of myself and I thought on a couple occasions, maybe down the road, what I need to do is make myself available as a spiritual coach to people who are transitioning away from traditional forms of a face into more of a daily applicational living and just Help them walk the journey as someone who’s just maybe a step or two ahead of them down the path somewhere path.

Unknown Speaker 46:05
Yeah, no, I

Brandon Handley 46:06
love that. Right. Listen, as you said earlier, we don’t know how this thing ends, right? We don’t know what’s on the other side. But what we do know is that today, if we’re living in accordance to living from our heart, if we’re doing what we feel is as good as it can be, you know, then every day you can theoretically you could be in heaven, right? Every day you can live a life that is giving and is the spiritual way. But there could be someone who doesn’t know what it means to live life as worship right. My niggas got something you were saying earlier right? live every day so it was the you know, the Lord say and again, you know, listen, I think that there’s bristles right like, you know, from for people, you say, God, they’re like, Oh, no,

Cory Walker 46:56
there goes yeah.

Cory Walker 46:58
loaded, loaded term. But for

Brandon Handley 47:00
even for me, right, I still I still toy with it mentally. You know, when I write the word God, I do little g just because I, I it’s just, it’s just the whole concept, right there’s there’s a wall in my mind with big G, right, but there’s no wall in my mind with universal or creative energies, all these other things, these are all ones that are free flowing, that mean the same thing.

Unknown Speaker 47:26
Right? To me.

Brandon Handley 47:28
And it’s easier for me to accept it right. So I think that you know, just just just as with you, like, if somebody were on this path, and they were coming out of a traditional church that would be easy for them to gravitate towards you, right? Because you’re got that experience. Whereas like, if it was somebody who’s coming onto this path that was just kind of coming onto this path. That wasn’t such a big g kind of guy, right? Then it might be somebody like me, right, where he’s like, Listen, we’re going to talk in Universal we’re going to talk all these other things, but

Cory Walker 47:56
yeah,

Brandon Handley 47:58
I love I love what you’re doing. There. That I think that that’s, you know, wonderful because they need that right. And here’s, here’s one of the things that I was saying too is is of with, with your, with the Bible with a faith with religion, it’s kind of like a framework for the space that you’ve gotten into is that you know, how, what is your What is your concept or idea that like as as it being the framework, not necessarily the whole building and structure and everything that it needs to be.

Cory Walker 48:29
Yeah, that’s a good way that’s a good way to look at it. I think it’s the skeletal structure and you put the meat in the bones on after the fact you know, it’s not the bumps and beaten in the skin on after the fact you get to build out your faith in the way that you that you can feel good about. Now, I’ve never believed spirituality was just all about feeling good. But the bottom line is, you need to be able I need to be able to live in a way that’s congruent with what I believe and if my beliefs are such that they’re preventing me from Living honestly, with my heart, then I’m just not in a very good place. And so, you know, I think religion is a good place and, and traditional forms of religion are a good place for to give structure for people who feel like they just be lost out there on their own if they didn’t have, you know, some guidance or some set of this or that, to help them down the path. And and I respect that. And one of the things that we believe over lifetime believe when we first stepped out of out of traditional Christianity was that it’s every individual’s responsibility and privilege to figure out what their faith is supposed to look like for them, instead of telling someone Well, you shouldn’t go to church, you know, I’m going to say, Hey, if you’re finding benefit in that, and I think my book reflected that in a couple ways, if you’re, if you’re finding benefit and being a part of an ongoing church, then then do so but if it’s not long, it’s no longer working for you. Don’t be afraid to step away and I just felt like that makes a lot more sense. than the one size fits all, you know, hey, let’s all jennea flex every Sunday or let’s all take communion on the first Monday, first Sunday of the month, or let’s all do this.

Cory Walker 50:10
To me, it just wasn’t it wasn’t working anymore.

Brandon Handley 50:12
Now I get it. I get it. Do you see yourself ever going back into it?

Cory Walker 50:16
Yeah, you know, my best friend. His name’s Jeremy. I think you’ve met him before. But he says. He says, Don’t you wish we could just go back to being good Methodist. Now neither one of us have been. Neither one of us have ever been Methodist. But the sentiment is Wouldn’t it be so much easier not to ask the deeper questions and to follow your heart and just do what you’re told. Just to show up once a once a month or twice a month and show some change in the offering and feel good about checking the boxes. Sure, when neither of us. Neither my wife or I really feel like we could ever take that journey back. There may be some phenomenal church out there that teaches the love of Christ and the grace of Christ without all the shoulds and this open to anybody who wants to come that we just haven’t discussed Get but certainly in our region. To my knowledge, it doesn’t exist. And know, if it does, I’ll ask, I’ll ask the divine Lord of the universe to bring it and drop it in my lap. So that all is there. And it does and I’ll be happy to walk through the door

Brandon Handley 51:15
a little bit. What um, you know, I was like trying to find out some different books or whatnot, you said you went through like 66 books as you were kind of gone through going through, you know, the, the E reading phase, what are what are some that like a really kind of revolutionized your way of thinking as it comes all this stuff?

Cory Walker 51:36
Well, you know, if you’re coming at it from a Christian standpoint, there’s couple good books, one of them’s called organic church. I can’t think of the author right now that is well known. And it just talks about some of the stuff I’ve talked about here today, about how it’s supposed to be an organism that’s supposed to grow on its own. And it’s supposed to be a living, breathing thing that’s made up of people not organ organization. The other one was called patient Christianity, it was a great book. And it talks, it traces all the doctrines that we hold dear today, back to in many cases, their pagan roots and the sense that they’re not, not of God, if you will, not biblical roots, but just traditional roots that go to different different types of belief systems all over the world. And so don’t get so hung up on whether something is biblical or not, you know, because most of what we do in our Sunday morning services isn’t from the Bible, it’s just things that are developed over 2000 years worth of religion so but you know, on the non Christian, if you will side outside of the mainstream, I really love the books like the Four Agreements and, you know, books that just, you know, I’m reading a lot of stuff. Like recently we’ve been rereading for third or fourth time then Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey. You know, just a lot of the lot of the stuff that for years in church, we were told not to read because you’re supposed to read Christian stuff, but yet every time I read the stuff that’s not Christian stuff, because by training of my upbringing, I’m seeing all the biblical truth that’s present in the non Christian stuff. Show goes goes back to that the divine wanting us to have truth bad enough, he’s willing to put it wherever he has to, in order to get it into our hands.

Brandon Handley 53:13
Right. I mean, that’s the whole, you know, cast it was a casting pearls before the swine, right? Like, I’m not saying that though, there’s always going to be this wine that doesn’t understand or appreciate the pearl. Right, versus you know, somebody else is looking for those exceptional pieces wherever they go. Yeah, that’s kind of, you know, so I’m hearing a little bit. So I’m curious there too. You know, I would hear stories about like paganism and the story of the cross in Christianity. I’m curious, did the pagan Christianity book did it talk to that at all?

Cory Walker 53:45
Well, the cross it didn’t specifically mention the cross. But we do know from historical documents that the cross was the form of capital punishment that you know, the Romans Jews and the Romans were occupying Israel at the time so Jesus would have died on a cross Because of, because that’s the way that they killed people back then. So that, that, that from what we can tell is accurate, but there’s just so many like even, you know, many of the end just things are so interwoven together and we don’t even recognize it. And I’m just going off of memory. But like even the you know, like today when we give toasts, maybe at a wedding or at a party, and someone raises their cup and gives a toast to somebody, it’s traced back to Communion within Christianity, where Jesus took the cup and said, This is my body is broken for you, as often, you know, drink this as often as you as often as you drink this, remember me. And so a lot of the things that are interwoven throughout our, throughout our culture in our society, can can come from some Christian stuff, and then a lot of the things that we have in Christianity came right out of very non Christian, what we would call pagan societal practices, just as a result of you know, having As the message of Christ spread throughout the world, it would be in and spread into different cultures than it was originally brought to. And result, different things would be adopted. And so that is a great little book called pagan Christianity. And it’s a, it’s a good read. So

Brandon Handley 55:16
thanks for sharing that. And like you’re saying, it’s really interesting to see where something starts and where it ends up. Right? How did it start? And where is it showing up in different spaces in our lives? So thank you. Thanks, man. You know, I think it’s been a lot of fun. I think I really definitely enjoyed kind of going through. For me, Pentecostal stuff was really kind of eye opening, sharing those gifts was also something to me that I wasn’t aware of. Right. So I think that there’s definitely stuff within, you know, Christianity within the scriptures that can really speak and rang true to some people are afraid to go into because of the organizational stuff because of some of the horror stories because of like, you know, you know, like, just your, they don’t want to go in and check off all these boxes, but they do. Do want, they do want to feel, quote unquote closer to God. Right.

Unknown Speaker 56:04
Yeah, totally. And and so, you know,

Brandon Handley 56:08
I think that that’s available to anyone like you’re saying, just kind of go out and seek it for yourself right and see, can you sell fine, right? Whatever. Whatever whatever you’re seeking is seeking you all that jazz. But Corey, thank you so much again for hopping on today. Where should I send somebody who’s going to come? Look for Corey Walker,

Cory Walker 56:29
probably the easiest way is to go through my website and that’s church Been there, done that calm, church, been there done that calm. And while I certainly still believe in the church, I just believe it’s who we are. A church attendance is something I no longer do. So that’s why we named a website that the web the book is available for free download there. And there’s ways to contact me through there if you’re wanting to just somebody to talk to or if you’re wanting to develop an ongoing friendship or relationship you know, that’s the joy of the internet. Now we can find people, even though we may be in the minority We can find people from all over the world that we can connect with who are thinking and feeling the same things.

Unknown Speaker 57:06
Now 100% So, let’s say you started Coreys spiritual coaching today what what Who do you feel like would be your ideal client?

Cory Walker 57:18
Um, you know, people who definitely people who grew up in the Christian faith, but who are seeking who seeks to find benefit in it and or they just can’t, they can’t live with some of the inconsistency is that they’re finding and the faith and instead of getting dumping God all together, if you will, they can find an alternative way to express their fate without having to have the religious aspect of it. That’s probably my ideal

Unknown Speaker 57:45
client. Awesome. Well, guys, if that’s you reach out to Cory.

Cory Walker 57:50
Thanks, Cory. thank thank you so much. Have a good day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Join me as I speak with Greg “Magick” Bernstein today.

For nearly twenty-five years Magick has been “creating a Shamanic Container” which catalyzes healing and awakening. While still
an attorney turned successful and lauded entrepreneur, he began his decades of study with master teachers, Elders, Kahuna, Shaman
and Mystics. Stepping fully into his role as spiritual teacher, shamanic life coach, mystic retreat leader, and master storyteller, at 37
he sold his last advertising company and moved to the Sacred Site of Hawaii.

On Maui, he established Sacred Voyages, through which he facilitates Sacred Site retreats and personal shamanic guidance.

His unique approach is to create & transmit a
powerful field of love and truth in which awakening, healing, the mystical, and connection to higher self is exponentially amplified. He does
this in part through his shamanic storytelling style in which he transmits teachings and their deep wisdom on an energetic level which penetrates
deep into listeners, helping them dissolve illusion and awaken to the truth of who they are so they can live their full authentic selves. This happens in
coaching sessions, group teachings, podcasts and broadcasts of any kind. He calls this essence of his work a Shamanic Transmission.

Connect with Magick ere:

https://sacredvoyages.com/

 877-SACRED8

https://www.instagram.com/sacredvoyagesmagick/

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Brandon Handley 0:02
321 Hey there This is Brandon Handley and I am on today with Greg magic Bernstein of sacred voyages. Greg, is he you know, it goes by magic actually. So as you have been doing 25 years of creating a semantic container which catalyzes healing and awakening, while still an attorney, he turns, who’s very successful attorney, he turned entrepreneur he began decades of study with master teachers, elders, Kahuna shaman and mystics stepping fully into his role as a spiritual teachers demonic life coach, mystic, retreat leader and master storyteller at 37. He sold his last advertising company and moved to the sacred site of Hawaii. on Maui he established sacred voyages through which he facilitates sacred site retreats and personal semantic guidance has you unique approach is to create and transmit a powerful field of love and truth in which awakening, healing, the mystical and connection to a higher self is exponentially amplified. He does this in part through his semantic storytelling style in which he transmits teaching and their deep wisdom on an energetic level which penetrates deep into listeners, helping them dissolve illusion and awaken to the truth of who they are, so they can live their full authentic selves. This happens in coaching sessions, group teachings, podcasts and broadcasts of any kinds. He calls this essence of his work, a semantic, semantic, semantic transmission. How would I say that but

Magick 1:44
different people say it differently, you know, I say demonic.

Brandon Handley 1:47
Got it. Got it. I still remember my mom busting my balls over or saying like Celtic before I learned that was Celtic, you know, way back in the day, right? I’m like, come on, um, but welcome and thanks for being In here very excited to have you on on with me. What is what is something we? You know, I’m actually that’s just my typical question that I like to think of let’s just like you said that this is kind of like a transmission of energy sermonic wise. And that can only come through and be facilitated I think a lot of times through a conversation and organic diatribe as it were. And to that end, what is something you think that somebody you know, who’s gonna needs to hear today?

Magick 2:35
What’s coming through? Yeah, so before I answer that, I just want to clarify one thing in your intro, thank you for that wonderful intro. And just, I just like to be really, really clear about things. So I did go to law school and become an attorney. But I did not never practice law. So I would never characterize myself as a successful attorney because I actually never practice law. Maybe that is successful. Like I didn’t want to do it. So I succeeded. By getting out of it for sure, but yeah, so just to clarify that so now for your question like so what what what would I want people to hear right now,

Brandon Handley 3:10
somebody needs to hear this right like so, this podcast is going out somebody needs to hear this

Magick 3:18
yeah so, that question can only come through in the moment for who I tune into and what I tuned into who might be listening in this moment and what started to come through when you said that is to tell the listener that you are love and that you you know, I lead retreats in sacred sites that’s that’s something that I do I take people out to to vortexes or places on the earth, where there are certain sites where the earth energy is is more active and alive and it amplifies catalyzes and accelerates change, evolution awakening of consciousness. These sites are are sprinkled all over the world and I prefer the ones in Hawaii and Mount Shasta and so don’t because they have to ticular qualities they have very specific qualities. And even though that’s one of the things that I do for work, my ultimate message is that you are actually the sacred site. You are the mystical experience you’ve been looking for. You are the love that you’ve been looking for. And looking outside of yourself for that just keeps you stuck in a circle or on a hamster wheel that actually has you continuously working something that you can towards something that you can actually never achieve. You may have noticed that anything that we get in life in the material third dimensional reality is temporary. It’s impermanence. By law, by nature, nothing lasts forever. Everything ends every relationship that you’re ever in dies, everything that you ever touch, every new iPhone that you get is going to break it’s going to eventually disintegrate. And so we look for the material world to bring As the deep lasting inner peace that we desire to bring us the love that brings that. And by definition, because it’s all impermanent, it can’t do that, you know, you can never get enough of what you don’t really need. So to turn your attention to the love that you already are, but you have lost sight of you become unconscious of and you’ve forgotten about, that can actually begin to cultivate a more lasting deep inner peace to really turn your attention to where it belongs. Instead of giving that up and going for basically what I would call the compensation package or the second prize. Well, I can have the shiny new car, I can have this great relationship or I can have sex or a drug or whatever, all of that like second prize, because usually we’ve given up and we don’t even realize that we could have the truth of who we really are.

Brandon Handley 5:54
At I mean, at the cost of opportunity, right? I love it by the way. So that’s that’s just awesome. You You will Love, right? So somebody needs to hear this today. Right? So somebody if you’re listening,

Unknown Speaker 6:06
you’re welcome.

Brandon Handley 6:09
You’re welcome. Right, the and so let’s talk a little bit about your history. How did you, you know, end up where you are today? I know we talked a little bit about it, you know, you studied law you didn’t, as you say, practice, but you did have a successful advertising business. But now you’re, you know, you’re this retreat guy, right. Did you see that coming? Right?

Magick 6:31
No, I

mean, it was just totally like it was a one thing led to another kind of thing. I mean, I definitely had some experiences when I was very young that were abnormal. You know, I had the experience of karma in first grade and I knew what karma was, and nobody told me about it. I was noticing that I had a telepathic relationship with my brother in sixth seventh grade. So had some experiences like that, but I never had I never really thought much about them, you know, and I just thought, Oh, that’s really interesting. And then when I got to college, I started practicing, I started reading spiritual, esoteric books. And I was practicing like, astral projection and leaving the body and things like that, because I had a friend who was also spiritually inclined and interested. But it was just sort of an exploration of life to me and what what life is and what its limits are. I had every intention of being an attorney, or a businessman, and just diving deeply into that world. It wasn’t until in 1996 I met my first teacher, because I was I had been on a transformational track of like, how do I improve my life? How do I become a better person? How do I get more of what I want have more peace since I was 14 when my parents asked me if I wanted to go into therapy, and I did. And so uh, In 1996, I went to a transformational center where I was living in Dallas. And that’s where I met my first teacher and she was, you know, a shaman, sorcerer, whatever you want to call it in disguise. You know, as her disguise was, Hey, I got this transformational center and I’m teaching these like modern, advanced psychological techniques like hypnosis and Jose Silva’s work and NLP and meditation, but when you got in there, you started to get into where she was teaching you psychic skills, psychometry, telepathy, you know, or reading and eventually deep mystical shamanism. And so she became my first teacher I fell in love immediately and started developing my own course like before I even finished her advanced course I was developing my own course and I was teaching in health club and I took private clients on but it was all like just the movement of the truth inside of me. I had a business at A time I wasn’t intending to change businesses. I wasn’t intending to be a spiritual teacher. I wasn’t intending to do anything other than this is just what’s alive in me. And this is what’s moving. I love teaching. I love working with people. She eventually asked me to start teaching at her center. She took me under her wing and started developing me and and apprenticing me to kind of take over. And she led shamanic retreats in Hawaii, which is where the deep shamanic, you know, cultivation started to occur. But all that was like I was also still I had, you know, I’d started an industry that didn’t exist before. GE Capital offered to buy that from me by the time I was just under 30. And, and then I built an international ad agency, and I was doing that all the time. I was spending almost every weekend teaching all weekend and several nights a week teaching in a mystery meditation school and had her center and but it was all as a hobby. It was all just like, I love it. And it’s I love that I’m growing. I love that I’m helping other people. It was wasn’t until I sold my business in two in 2005. I moved to Hawaii. And my teacher said, Well, why don’t you start leading retreats there? And I was like, Huh, okay. And that began sort of as a career more, which I don’t really think of it as that. But, you know, the the material world and spiritual world completely merged and became one at that point.

Brandon Handley 10:23
Now, I love that, you know, that kind of opens up the question here where you’re doing this, we’ll just call it your, I’m sure it was more than nine to five. I’m sure you’re working, you know, whatever the hours were, but how you work in the corporate gig. And at the same time, you’re doing that the mystery school and the mysticism on the weekends?

Unknown Speaker 10:45
How are you able to integrate the two?

Magick 10:48
Great question that that was my whole journey during that time, because I for a good chunk of that time, I felt like I had two paths, like I was on two parallel paths and they felt Separate. And yet I kept going inside and checking with my higher self and my inner guidance, and I kept getting No, you’re on the right path. This is the path like it’s one path, even though it’s two. So I would say the primary way that they got integrated was inner guidance. So a big part of what I was developing during this time period, was my connection to my higher self. And cultivating that connection so that I could make every decision in my life from something greater than what my mind might decide from something greater than my logical brain. From what I would call my omnipotent self or my god self or something, you know, this this part of me this inner guidance or higher self, the way I see it is, it’s like, it is everything that ever has existed or ever will exist in quantum physics. Now they talk about there being an infinite number of parallel universes that are all coexisting at the same time, there’s no time space, there’s no past or present or future, it’s all happening now. And so within that my higher self has already been and and will be everything. And so it has access to way more than the narrow range of my left brain, you know, thinking logical sequential cutting reality into small little bits and pieces mind. So I started cultivating, tuning into that and when I tune into that it gives me information and it tells me what to do. So I can be in divine right action. I can be in the right place at the right time doing the right thing. And when I say right, I don’t mean right or wrong. I mean, like the highest choice, the place for the most grace synchronicities manifestations, and that’s the best for all concerned. So I implemented that into my business life. For example, I had a potential client that my advertising agency specialized in outdoor advertising like billboards. So me and my sales lady went to see this client and he wanted to buy like two $300,000 worth of billboards from us. And he was a, you know, triple A rated client who spent a million dollars a year on television been around forever, you know, seemed like a great deal. But he said, Go back to your office and write up a contract. Well, on the way back to the office, I got a clear No, do not do business with this man. Now I’m on a need to know basis with my inner guidance. So it doesn’t have to give me the reasons it just gives me the yeses and noes and do this or do that. So I said to my sales lady, I said, You know, I, you may not understand or get this and I know that this is going to cost you a big commission, but I’m really getting that we should not do business with that man. She’s like, What are you talking about? He’s awesome. And he’s gonna, he’s a great company and blah, blah, blah. And I said, I just have the sense it’s just an intuitive deep sense. That it’s a no. And we’ve worked together enough. And she’d seen this enough that she trusted it and didn’t put up much of a fight even though she was going to lose a big commission.

Well, we didn’t take the business he did put the words up with one of the local vendors who I talked to six months later. And the guy said that the guy didn’t pay his bills and stuck them with a couple hundred thousand dollars. That would have put me out of business, for sure. Another way that it manifested and I was able to practice it is I used to drive around the city with a notepad and I’d write down the names on all the billboards, and then I’d go back to the office and I’d spend a week calling those hundred people and saying, hey, do you need an advertising agency that specializes in billboards? Here’s why I’m better than you could do it or anybody else. And you know, I have a normal closing rate, maybe, you know, 10 15% or whatever, that I would make sales. But one day, I was driving around and I noticed that some of the billboards they just said There was just a different feeling I had about them. And it was my guidance. And my guidance was saying, These people are right. And it’s a perfect Win Win, call them. And at first I ignored it. Because that’s kind of what happens. And we usually ignore this still quiet voice or that soft feeling that we have. That’s our inner guidance. And so I often tell people, I learned more about my inner guidance from times when I don’t listen to it, then times when I do, because often when I don’t listen to it, I mean, when I do listen to it, I don’t always see a result. Like if I’m guided to go a different way home one day, and I go that different way home, and I didn’t get in a car accident. I don’t really know. I didn’t get no car accident. But when I didn’t listen to these voices about the boat wards, six months later, the guy who had one billboard in town all of a sudden had 20. And I’m like, Whoa, they could have used me. That’s the kind of perfect clients when they’re growing like that, that Use me. And I remember that voice in my head. Because I know my voice. It’s like, I teach people how to find their god voice. You know, mine’s three inches, four inches behind my head just below the occiput Ridge, it kind of points upward. It’s a male voice of tuck soft and quiet and a certain tone and pitch. So I can spot it and distinguish it from any other thought or feeling inside of myself. That’s very valuable. So anyway, fast forward, I started listening to that voice that was telling me which billboards to call on and now I would drive around and I’d write down one or two instead of 100 names. And I would have like an 80% closing rate, I call them up and I’d say, Hey, this is what I do. And this is why I can benefit you and they’d say, Oh, my God, you’re a godsend. Thank you so much for calling when you do, and it was just beautiful, how it would unfold. So throughout my business career, which I found that transformational center just after I entered in The business so throughout my business career, I was implementing following my inner guidance my inner guidance and being on a spiritual path the entire time and it was of great benefit in fact it it it almost cost me my business not following it once and I got back on track and got everything I wanted out of that business because I did fall away it was it was intense the lessons for sure, but powerful so that’s one of the ways I integrated it.

Brandon Handley 17:31
Now I love it right because I mean you you know like you said you discovered your God voice and that reminded me of you know, I’m sure you’ve probably covered Course of Miracles yourself at one point. Have you ever done a Course of Miracles or gone through it checked it out?

Magick 17:48
I’ve never done the Course in Miracles but I’m familiar with it. But there’s

Brandon Handley 17:51
there’s one section in there. I forget the exact lesson right but real similar what you’re saying is and when you when you understand or you hear your God voice and I’m not sure like I’ve got mine honed down just as well as you have, but when when you realize that that’s coming from within you, you’re like, Whoa, right? That’s, that’s a powerful, that’s a powerful thing. And and you don’t really forget that moment when you recognize that that’s, that’s what that is. And then, you know, you got so many, you know, lots of awesome pieces in here. One of the things that I think that we don’t see caught out too much is the idea of cultivation, cultivation, self cultivation, right? You want to talk to that a little bit for me, because you called it out, right? Like you cultivated yourself. Your connection to your higher self is, what does it mean to cultivate yourself?

Magick 18:47
Yeah, well, I mean for me, as I started the call out. Today, you know, I am the sacred sites. I am God, everything God, God is infinite. So there isn’t anything that isn’t God. I am inner guidance, I am unconditional love. If you talk to any therapist and you say what’s at the heart of people’s confusion, their depression, their sadness, their, you know feelings of despair, their anger, their fears, you know, at the heart of all of that is self esteem, self worth, which is about self love. And so, to me cultivating is it’s like a garden. You know, if you have a garden outside and you don’t ever water it, you don’t ever weed it. You don’t ever give it love. You don’t never tend to it in any way. It’s probably not going to grow, you know, it’s going to wither away and it’s just going to be kind of a barren, empty garden. So to me, it’s like going inside and finding the love that I am and then putting my attention on that putting my consciousness in And being with it, that’s a cultivation of it, that’s actually bringing it to life bringing it to consciousness. Same thing with my inner guidance. If I put my attention on it, if I find it and distinguish it from anything else, I’m building a relationship with my deeper wisdom, and the deepest love and Divinity that I am. It’s a relationship, as long as we’re in duality, that we are in relationship with everything. And so when you build that relationship and you cultivate an intimacy with yourself and intimacy with your God, self and intimacy with the love that you are, then you become more of that and you become you manifest and actualize more of that until eventually, you become one with it. And you are it which is the true reality that was already there in the first place. You were just in the illusion of separation.

Brandon Handley 20:58
I love it. I love it. You know, absolutely right, you got to cultivate, you have some nurture. You have to allow for it to unfold. And that’s word use a little bit earlier too. Because you can’t really force that, right, you can’t force that to happen. And if you do try to force it to happen, I, I liken it to, you know, like tissue paper or something, right? Like you, you can, you can kind of walk it open gently or something like that. But if you try to force tissue paper, if you’re just going to shred it, right, so, I mean, you really can’t, you can’t force this thing to happen. You can cultivate and nurture You know, this love of self this enter God, the recognition that you are God. And when you say that it’s it’s not exclusionary to, like you said, the rest of anything. It’s because everything is God. Right. Right.

Magick 21:54
Yeah. Like when most people would hear you know, whenever I say that, I’m very aware of the misinterpretation that can occur. When I when I especially when I say I am God, because you know, there is a very egoic way that somebody could say that I’m special. I’m different. I’m better, you know, and that’s not what I’m talking about. When I’m talking about is I’m actually the same as you, right? Like we’re both god, there’s there’s nothing better or different about me or you were the same thing. Actually everything that we see that distinguishes us as different is actually illusion. Anything that I could say that is better or worse about you or me is all the illusion of this material reality. When you awaken to your true nature, you one realizes that I am you. You are me, there is no difference.

Brandon Handley 22:50
There’s no separation,

Magick 22:51
right? There’s no separation and we’re both God.

Brandon Handley 22:55
Right. I mean, that was like you’re saying it’s when you awaken to the The true sense of who you are your God self, it’s to recognize that you are as well as everybody else right to recognize the Divinity in everything.

Magick 23:12
Is that fair? Yeah, for sure. Okay. And what find? What I like to help people get back to cultivation and nurturing right, is that people are typically looking for that outside themselves. How do I realize this by going to this religion or chanting this boss, john or going to Kyrgyzstan or, you know, whatever practice it is, which some of those things can definitely be helpful. I’m not saying they’re not. Two of the things that I find to be the most potent are going to sacred sites, sacred sites catalyze and amplify and accelerate. If you have the keys to unlock the mystical aspects of those sites and the power of those sites, you know how to do that, and those sites can actually touch us into what we what’s beyond our perceived limitations and take us into a greater experience of reality, a more mystical experience, kind of like Iosco without the Iosco. And the second thing is meditation. You know, it’s everything is inside of you, the entire universe is inside of you, all the love that’s ever exists is inside of you. God is inside of you, the infant is inside of you, divinity is inside of you. So if you want to actually cultivate and nurture a relationship with those things and realize those things, then you’ve got to go not outside where you can have some externalized version of it or some intellectual version of it or conceptual version, but inside where you can experience it. Everything that truly transforms us is experiential, and that happens on the inside. Most of us are very disassociated from our bodies, which is our vehicle for the spiritual Being having a human experience. And so we’re in our heads we’re thinking, and that keeps us from being in the body. And that’s where the experience of the as above and so below meets divinity in humanity meet in the body, that’s where it’s happening. But most of us are walking around just outside our body just outside our body this way or this way, or that way. We’re in the future. We’re in the past. We’re not actually here.

Brandon Handley 25:25
I mean, so one of the things that you’re talking about there, too, that I’m hearing is it’s you know, while you know, our bodies are kind of the container you know, would you would you also make sure that you know, the vessel the vehicle, but we’re so much more than like me, because I see, you know, you’re, you know, in the video, you’re pointing to yourself in this body here and around, but like, we’re everywhere at all times. And I think that you also talk a little bit earlier about, like, you know, these kind of parallel universes being available at all time. There’s not, you know, this kind of Time space continuum is there like an ability to shift knowingly in between these?

Magick 26:05
there absolutely is and what I want to like further distinguish when I’m talking about going in and you’re talking about, hey, but we’re outside to like wherever you were like I’m this computer that I’m looking into right? Um, my experience and all I can do is speak from my experience is that if I want to discover the mystical if I want to discover the love that I am, if I want to discover the the infinite, instead of going out because I am out there, right but instead of going out which is less palpable, you know, it’s it’s harder for me to discover it that way. It’s to go in and then in here is everything out there. It’s the doorway in and when I go in here, and I drop out of thought which has us in sequential time. Right. It has a stuck in 30 dimensional reality. So I dropped out of the mind, which is a narrow realm of existence that holds us in all those laws and science and, you know, the laws of science and all of that are from the rational mind. Like they don’t occur when you’re dreaming, right? Because you’re not in that rational mind state, you’re in office state. You know, you’re in, you’re in a slower brainwave frequency when you’re dreaming. And that’s why you can walk through walls and you can fly. So to actually drop us into that lower brainwave frequency during waking reality, through a meditative practice or going into a site that alters us into our more normal actually natural selves, which is lower frequency, then in that slower frequency. Now the permeability between all these parallel universes is much thinner. Our ability to step from one timeline to the other. Well, of course, I can just step from one to the other, which is why when people come on retreats with me, I mean, sometimes people come with terminal disease and they leave and it’s gone. Like a lot. I mean, physical healing is one of the number one things that are, I would say, easy to shift when people come on a retreat, you know, they come with a cancer, one lady came last Shasta retreat with a cancer on her chest and she left and it was gone. It just boom, you just step from one reality to another. But the key is you have to get out of the mind and into the body.

Brandon Handley 28:28
Of that, hello, that I mean, you know, I don’t I don’t understand exactly what you mean by you know, out of the mind and the body but, you know, I feel I feel it right. Like it’s kind of, yeah. which is which is, which is an interesting thing too. And you know that that’s a big part of this whole kind of journey. You know, and when you talk about recognizing your God, so when we talk about being divine, it’s not to the exclusion of anybody else. This is the name experience and you’ve feel it and this is where to me You know I love I love the the sights gets you beyond like you know what some of these other religions get you beyond but it’s been so far my experience and I’m I’m on a newer journey right that I’m able to at least refer to some texts like religious texts or something else to know that this isn’t new. This isn’t new. This isn’t the first time this has happened. It’s not because because to me, especially when I went through it I went through a kind of alone right? I went through you know, kind of this you know, piercing the veil or whatever breaking through that that doorway right? And you know, literally you can almost look back at your life and see like there was this doorway that was always there that you always had the option to kind of walk through and see, right. But there’s, that’s what is in these religious texts and, you know, this goes back to you know, I’m not a kulak look, never a churchgoer. But like, you don’t cast your pearls before swine, and it that that line has meaning now, right? Like you can’t, you know, have these conversations with just anybody unless they’re open to them, right and have had that experience to recognize, because you and I have this conversation and on the back of my head, I’m like this kind of stuff. Right. Um, and, but that only comes because I’ve had some experience in it. Right.

Magick 30:28
Totally. And, and, you know, I’m not the first person to say anything that I say, you know, that, like you said, there’s been people throughout time that have said, what I’m saying in different ways, you know, and so that’s, that’s comforting to look back and go, Oh, yeah. Because on the way like you said, you you can’t really, like you heard what I said, but you don’t fully grok it. You can feel it in the body. And that’s why I share with people like it’s exciting. Initial, you can get it conceptually, maybe. But when you’re talking about some of the things we’re talking about here, you can’t really deeply get it until you just experience it and you can’t force yourself into that experience. All you can do is put yourself in situations where you’re more likely to have the experience and learn so that you know where you’re headed and what you’re, you know what may happen, which opens up the doorway to it. So, meditation, going to sacred sites, maybe doing some chanting, whatever, putting you in a place where the most of us are thinking all the time, and we’ve been thinking all the time our entire lives. So we think that that’s who and what we are, and that’s what we need to navigate reality. Now, when you awaken out of that to some degree, and you’re just in the body, I have the experience of no thoughts or thoughts happening, but I’m not a identified with them. So I’m not one with them. So I know they’re not real. They’re just thoughts. And they’re just like clouds passing, and I’m centered in the silence. I’m centered in the emptiness and the nothingness. That is everything that is me. That is all it is. And there isn’t any need for a commentator, someone to tell me a story about what’s going on or about somebody else, or to judge something or to compare and contrast or any of the stuff that the egoic mind does. I’m disidentify with that, and that’s who and what I really am. That’s what’s permanent, versus what’s temporary is the thoughts they come and they go so they can’t be really what you really are. They come and go. So when we get in the body and we have an experience like that, that can wake us up. But then there’s usually a journey of trusting like can you trust Can you turn the reins over to your to your life to God, meaning you’re not going to think your decisions any More you’re just gonna let God live you let life live me that’s a big trust that’s the big let go and

Brandon Handley 33:07
let God right let go and let God and Zack Listen man, you know, it’s it’s yeah you want to write you want to in such a such a such a terribly hard way but you know it’s just the programming right it’s hard to it’s really hard to jilt that and especially you know, I’m just gonna come at it from my own perspective being you know being a family man right like this is this you know for me to for me to walk downstairs and be like hey listen we’re just going to go ahead and let go and let God now from here on out you know you remember that T shirt you got that was funny that said you know Jesus take the wheel and I’m gonna say Jesus take the wheel and it’s not funny anymore is it? But, but I you know, um, you know, I kind of came across that and I really felt that when I was I was reading a lot of Florence scovel Shinn, right? The idea of just really casting all your worries to God and men. I have not ever felt so light my shoulders like I mean, I was just relaxed at that moment and understood for just a moment what that felt like. And I was like, this is the thing. No wonder why it’s in a book. That’s pretty old. It’s been passed out for a while.

Magick 34:20
Right? Right. Throw out a practical way into this. Yeah, absolutely. Please do intuitive for most. Yeah. So you want to, you know, let go and like God, and so whenever we set an intention, I want to let go and let God or I want a new Mercedes. It doesn’t matter what it is. When we set a new intention, the way humans are built and constructed where we’re like manifesting machines. So we we create things we materialize things into reality if our vessel is clear, and there isn’t any conditioning woundedness baggage, for sure. versus the case with anybody. But if it’s totally clear like that, then we just think something. And if it’s in soul alignment, it just materializes. So, if you decide I want to let go and let God and you state that intention, then all you have to do next is be what will happen if there’s something in the way of that is it will immediately show up. So if I’m like, Oh, you know, I’m thinking about whether I should quit this job. I just want to let go and like God, Mm hmm. You set that intention. And if you sit and meditate, or you just walk around, go for a walk in nature, what’s going to happen immediately is everything in the way of it your fears, your doubts, your worries, the consequences of what could happen, all of that is going to arise. Most people confuse that with a problem. Oh, no, you know, all my worry is here. Now, that didn’t work. You know, I thought I was you know, I was letting go and letting God and what I got instead was fear and doubt That’s actually part of the actualization of your intention is that if there’s something in the way, the unconscious sends it up to the conscious so that you can actually metabolize it, process it, empty it out of your system. And then when you’re empty, you are letting go and letting God so the key is to be processing our emotions and our wounds and our trauma. And what most of us do is we avoid our wounds and our emotions and our trauma. The emotional body does not work. If you don’t feel it. It’s like you will get it’s like your digestive track does not work. If you don’t have saliva and digestive fluids. You will get constipated, you will get stopped up. It will stop your entire body from running it will eventually break down all your other systems. Same with your emotional body. If you’re not feeling your emotions, they don’t get to resolve. They’re all temporary as long as they get to resolve and they get to do that. Their full completion cycle, when you don’t feel them, they don’t get to do that. And then they get stuck inside of you. And then they’re they’re, they’re running you from your unconscious. You ever wonder why you have behaviors and thoughts and feelings that are not in alignment with your intentions? You know, you’re trying to be really loving and kind to your partner or your daughter or whoever. And something passive aggressive comes out, or you know, a way that’s like, something that your father would do that you definitely don’t want to do. And you’re like, why would I do that I don’t want to do that is because there’s unprocessed wounds and emotions in your in you and they want resolution. And so they will attract and magnetize situations into your life so that you can touch in with those old wounds and heal and resolve them. So if I want to let go, I’m like God, all I have to do. And I say that, you know,

Brandon Handley 37:53
like, I just face my shit.

Unknown Speaker 37:54
Exactly.

Brandon Handley 37:58
So, so here, here I think is a Crux on this one. Right. And, you know, just just see what your your thoughts are on this is that, you know, I think that as Western Western civilization, we grow up and we’re told, you know, to not let our emotions run us and and what we do is is, you know, or analyze like, you, you can’t you got to be in control of your emotions, right. And we don’t we don’t know what that means, right? As especially in our youth, right, in our youth, we process this as, Oh, I better shut that down, because I’m starting to feel something right. Yeah. And and I think that also what you’re talking about two, would you know, would this be what is kind of characterized as the Shadow Work? Right, you know, is that, is that fair?

Magick 38:42
Yeah, I mean, that Shadow Work is an aspect of it. I mean, ultimately, what I teach people is how to love everything equally, without distinction without a version to one thing repulsion with not trying to pull one thing or in or push anything out. I’m going to unconditionally And that’s an important distinction. We’re not talking about conditional love here, we’re talking about unconditional love and we can, I can tell you what that means in a minute. But to unconditionally love everything equally that’s happening inside of me. Whatever emotion is going on, to unconditionally welcome it, accept it, feel it and be with it. When we do that one, we stop suffering, because my definition of suffering is the resistance to what is so when we’re resisting fear or doubt or pain, we suffer because we now have decided something’s wrong with it. We’ve given it a label, it’s bad or it’s good. And now we don’t want it and so it hurts when we don’t have the mind involved separating things. It just is. Fear just is in you know, my definition of joy is being in reality exactly the way reality is. So I’m just fully I am my fear. It doesn’t matter anymore. It’s not something I’m separate from, and that’s running me it just is and then it actually can heal and release. And so yes, when you’re doing this work, it will both take you into your divinity, because you’re loving what is so when what is is empty and peaceful, you’re going to be in like this incredibly infinite space of all that is, and that will take you into your shadow, which is your unresolved trauma and wounds of your humanity, of what it means to be a separate individuated being on this earth. That’s a painful wound. And whatever form it’s been showing up in you, wherever you were, you did not receive unconditional love. That’s a wound and it needs your love. Like we’re here to learn to love ourselves in the ways that we weren’t loved by the external. One of my friends studied near death experience where he was with someone studying near death experiences. And, you know, lots of those people said, you know, they, they saw light at the end of the tunnel and they saw whatever their God was and all of that, but he actually found that the number one thing people said, was that what before they came back, they were told the purpose of life is to love

Brandon Handley 41:08
that Well, I mean, and then a big part of that too. And what you’re saying is, you know, love all of who you are unconditionally. Right. I mean, that’s like the, the gist of it. So, you know, before we before we dial it down too far, you know, the, one of the big parts about this podcast is, you know, to really, you know, share a little bit more about what it’s like to follow your path with each you did. You’re going to say, you know, kind of, you know, Joseph Campbell line, follow your bliss, right and into a career into a life kind of worth living with intention and, and all these other things. I mean, tell us a little bit about what that looks like to run a business like that.

Unknown Speaker 41:48
Like to hear about that.

Magick 41:50
Well, there’s two aspects of that for me. One, there’s like when I had my advertising agency, I wasn’t Exactly following my bliss so that Joseph Campbell quote, like I get, and also, it’s, it could be a trap, because following your bliss, if you’re following pleasure, then that means that you might not be following the truth.

Brandon Handley 42:17
Mm hmm. That’s right. I mean, you gotta you got to make that distinction of, you know, you’re not just, you’re not just following pleasure or following I guess what makes your heart sing right? When you said earlier being true to yourself, right. And, and, and I think that’s the definition I would use for bliss, right.

Magick 42:34
Yeah, I’m even that definition. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, right. I’m just saying, There’s there there’s, there’s, it’s hard to put these things into like one single phrase. I mean, I think that’s a really good one. However, sometimes my my higher self or my inner guidance might take me into something that isn’t so blissful. That doesn’t feel so good temporarily, but it is the best choice for me and everyone else. Sure. Now that in itself is blissful. So it’s tricky. We’re using language here. Right? Right.

Brandon Handley 43:05
Right, right. So

Magick 43:06
for me that bliss if you want to use Joseph Campbell’s phrase includes my inner guidance, it includes my my higher self. And when I do that, it doesn’t really matter what’s happening, I am blessed. You know, I am experiencing joy as long as I’m, as I mentioned earlier, you know, really being with what is no matter what is. So I feel like that that other quote, that I don’t know who said it, but they said, you know, if you do what you love, you never work a day in your life. Right, right. Yeah. And that’s where I feel like I’m at now. Okay. is in the work that I do. It’s what I love. It’s, it’s, it’s it wouldn’t matter if I was getting paid not getting paid. I mean, for many years, I wasn’t getting paid.

Brandon Handley 43:50
Let me talk about that. What was that part like, right? I mean, so because here’s, here’s, here’s what I think a lot of people you know, it’s just like that iceberg thing, right? A lot of people see the tip of the iceberg but they don’t see you know, Everything else that went into getting to where you are today. Right?

Magick 44:04
Right. Yeah, I mean, it was a long, difficult, arduous journey for me, I came from there. I mean, the reason why my parents wanted me to go get into therapy when I was 14 is because I was a hellion, you know, rebellious, angry hellion that had been in a dysfunctional family and was was incredibly hurting. And so, years and years and years and years, I like Actually, my whole life. From that point. I’ve had some kind of mentor, some kind of therapist and I’m constantly working with shamans and Guna, sorcerers and just always being mentored and I have dedicated my life to my path. So you know, the one thing I noticed I used to teach classes and I’d have 3040 people in class and I would say now if you’ll just do it This exercise I just taught you, between now and next week just to at once, if you’re really into doing every day, and I guarantee you, you’re going to change your life. And then if I come back next week, and I’d say how many people did it and nobody, you know, one person, two people, nobody consistently would raise their hands. I always was the guy that did it every day. You know, I’d be like doing the exercises every day, meditating every day. If you my, my experience is that if people really want to realize their divinity, or have peace, or have you know, even at the lowest level of the hierarchy, like just get what you want in life. That requires a lot of work. And for me, I always had two things going one, there was just something inside of me. There’s just something inside of me that just is evolving, and there’s nothing I can do about it. I’m on a train.

Brandon Handley 46:01
Yeah, I mean that unfolding is gonna happen whether or not life is going to happen, right and unfold. Whether or not you’re, you’re asking it to, right there’s

Magick 46:12
my pursuit of doing transformational work that was just happening like, like some people don’t do it, I couldn’t help it. I’m just doing it. Right. And then there was a second piece where I had pointed in dedicated my life that I want to evolve and I want to do this work and I want to change and grow. And, and that part of me saw it as an investment. Like every moment that I meditate, the quality of my life is going to improve in the next moment, every moment that I do some exercise that I’ve learned that some transformational class, the quality of my life is going to improve. Every retreat that I go on, the quality of my life is going to improve and and I chose retreats and teachers and exercises and meditations that if I didn’t see like you results like, I tell people when I work with them in private sessions with me on the phone, if you don’t change in one session dramatically, I’m probably not the right teacher for you or, or helper. Like, let’s do a maximum of three sessions and we evaluate, right? I mean, I’ve sat with schizophrenia before for two hours and then they’re not schizo. phrenic, I’ve sat with someone that had a debilitating brain tumor that was causing them complete malfunctions and one of their, the language centers of their brain so they couldn’t speak or understand language. 30 minutes later, they’re speaking and understanding perfect English, like you’re not working with someone that’s facilitating those kinds of results. You may want to find somebody else and that’s what I that’s what I that’s what I dedicate my life to. That’s how I have five six different sorcerer shamans that have taken me under their wing and that I had this like, lifetime Carlos customer data book kind of experience with six of them.

Brandon Handley 47:56
Wow. I love that. I love that. I mean, I love the fact that you know It’s like hey, maybe there’s there’s plenty of people out there that I think take advantage of people’s willingness to to find him better themselves. But yours isn’t just defined and better yourself. It’s to radically alters somebody’s life. Is that right? I mean, is that fair? I mean, I can’t listen. Yeah, that’s a that’s an awesome, you know, kind of kind of way to go about it. And you know, that That, to me sounds like that’s, you know, that’s your intention when you wake up every day and your intention is to radically alter somebody else’s life in a way that such that you know, if they come back to you and say, I don’t feel radically altered, like Well, I guess this wasn’t meant to be right. It’s not you It’s me. I don’t know right. But

Magick 48:47
yeah, matter why, you know, it’s the right fit for each other. Sure. Yeah. Pass but yeah, that’s that’s my measuring stick. You know, whether I’m on doing a retreat or I’m working with people in person or whatever. If they’re not, like, after they do a retreat with me, if I don’t check if I check back with them a year or two or 10 years, 10 years later, and they don’t tell me it was a defining moment of their life, and they are like, you know, I’m totally different now. And here’s why. And here’s what happened differently, then I feel like, you know, I didn’t do my job. Wow. And I love that. I love that too.

Brandon Handley 49:23
So, so much, so much good stuff. So, you know, look, I mean, here’s this, you’re just another awesome story. And I’ll say just another awesome story. But there’s, for people who are tuning into this podcast, what I want them to know is that, you know, they can, you know, follow their intuition. They can listen to that God voice and, and, and trust it, you know, how do you how would you go about telling somebody to begin to trust that right, like to trust their intuition? Mm hmm.

Magick 49:54
Well, I think that the it’s a difficult question to answer because I work with people individually rather than generalizing. And that’s how I get the results I get. So whenever I try to generalize it, it’s challenging. However, having said that, the I think the first step is to find the time that you were intuitively guided about something new for me the first time that I tried to answer the question that you just asked, I asked myself, Well, when is the time in my life when I was guided? So I can go back and study it and figure out how is that guided? Like most people are, like, if I say, Well, how do you know when you’re guided? They go, I don’t know. I just know. Well, that’s a lazy answer. And often an ignorant answer. And I don’t mean that derogatorily I just mean, like, they don’t know what they don’t know.

Brandon Handley 50:52
Does that is that that’s the lack of cultivation.

Magick 50:54
All right. Yeah, exactly. They don’t realize that they could go back, slow down there. memory of a time when they had an inner guided experience and study it and notice, did I see something? Did I hear something? Did I feel something? Was it inside me? Was it outside me? How did this piece of wisdom drop into my consciousness or arrive here? Because there is a way that each person uniquely receives and perceives inner guidance. That’s the most important first step is to start trying to find how do I receive and receive guidance? Because if you don’t know that, how are you supposed to improve upon it and start you know, being more guided by it? You don’t even know what it is. It’s just like a random thing if you don’t know that. So that’s the first step is to just start studying it. And, you know, also, I think, a practice and intention and a practice. It’s like, Okay, I’m going to intend today on Tuesday. David, I’m going to follow my inner guidance today. And I’m going to do it see most people start trying with big decisions and have big consequences. Like how am I going to get a divorce? Am I going to move? You know, like big things? It’s like, no bad idea. There’s because not only do I teach like how to get in touch with you and your guns, but there’s a whole laundry list. I spent a whole day in my inner guidance weekend class, teaching people what can get in the way of it. And when it’s a big decision, there’s a lot more that comes up that’s in the way. So start out with little perfunctory, ordinary mundane decisions. What are you going to eat for lunch today? What are you going to wear, you know, who am I going to call today? foods a really great one. And I have a great experience with it. You know, I was at a 10 day workshop. And they were feeding us at the workshop and they were feeding us a lot of, you know, raw food solids and I was a carnivore at the time. And you know, I was by the time that workshop ended, I was like ready for some meat. So my buddy and I were like, let’s find the best cheeseburger in town. So we found this place that had a great cheeseburger. We went there. He didn’t even he opened the menu, sell cheeseburger, closed it, I opened the menu, and I was like, Well, I’m gonna use my inner guidance today. Even though I desperately wanted a cheeseburger, so I cruised the menu, and I got a hard note on the cheeseburger, which was very disappointing. But I had cultivated a pretty strong relationship with my guidance at that point. And that’s what it takes. It takes doing things like this and building trust from experiences like the one I’m telling you, because I didn’t order a cheeseburger. I ordered like some sauteed fish and vegetables, which wasn’t what I really wanted. Your wants is one of the things that can get in the way of your guidance. Now what I wanted, but what do I want more to follow my inner guidance which is taking all of my wants, and all of my souls purpose and everything into consideration, or some tiny little egoic wants in the moment, right? That’s a distinction most people don’t have. So I wanted the big wants, I want guidance. So I ordered the fish. My friend had the burger arrive, he took three bites, he felt sick, didn’t finish it got food poisoning. My fish was fantastic. Right now that experience is one of those moments that like, crystallized and and deepened my experience with my guidance so that my faith in it was even stronger after that. So, practice, practice, practice in non threatening inconsequential contexts, and then pay attention. How did I get that? How did I know that? Get a journal, where you can keep notes about this stuff and reflect on it. And this is the cultivation of it. It’s paying close attention to it your attention is the most valuable asset that you have that you can direct that and where you direct that is where things will grow and things will begin to build where attention goes energy flows.

Brandon Handley 55:15
I love it. I love it, you know absolutely right you know stick to the small stuff right? And and and don’t try to manifest or expect miracles on your on your first go round. Right? And you know just and and accept it and and i think that we’re talking about is is there certain qualities these are qualitative, you know experiences that you feel right? They have textures they have moments that you know, that you can you can go back at and you can recreate those within yourself right to feel whether or not you you say oh, this is intuition again, right this right and and you can go back and begin to see that I love it. I mean, you’ve definitely given us lots of like, you know, The things that we can, you know, look at and try to implement in our daily lives. And, you know, it’s plain to see again that this is a huge benefit in the services that you provide. So super glad that we had the opportunity to connect and share this with a larger community. Where, where would I send somebody who who’s looking for a little magic today?

Magick 56:25
Well, you can find me at my website sacred voyages.com. And you can find me on social media at Sacred voyages magic. And if somebody wanted to email, they could email the addresses awaken at Sacred voyages calm. And I’m just realizing I don’t have my 800 number memorized. So I’m gonna tell you that in one moment here, it’s eight, seven Seven sacred eight. It’s funny, I didn’t have that memorized 877 sacred aids it’s pretty easy. And you know, I offer virtual retreats where somebody can be in their home anywhere in the world. And we can have a retreat in which I teach them how to create a sacred sites out of any nature where you’re at, and how to have the kinds of experiences that we have in vortexes, like in Sedona, or Mount Shasta or Hawaii, in Chicago or in Florida or wherever you are, and there’s interactions with people and their demonic transmission and teachings. You know, on this podcast I’m, I tried to convey and transmit as much of this information as possible. But it is less conducive with the interactivity than when I’m just on my own and I just drop in like later today, and I do this once a month and you can find out more at circle forge comm I do my own podcasts, which is on Facebook Live and it’s also recorded. And I think it’s sacred forges comm forward slash magic with a K on the N dash talks. And and that’s a powerful way to connect more with me it’s free. I pick a topic each month and I just transmit that topic. And people get affected and transformed by it. And so there’s virtual retreats, there’s retreats that are in sacred sites, which right now we’re in times of COVID. So that’s happening less or not at all at the moment, you know, I do custom retreats and I do group retreats and then I do a limited number of private one on one sessions on the phone because I only have so much time. So those are the primary ways that somebody could reach me and find out more and, and many of the topics that we talked about today, you know, I could teach you about for a weekend, you know, how to love yourself, how to cultivate guidance, you know, discovering the Divinity inside embodiments, you’re being with your emotions, which is really, I think the Number one secret to our humanity. The number one secret, we don’t get a manual. When we come down onto the earth. Nobody says, Hey, here’s the manual, here’s how you run this thing. We’re all trying to figure it out. And if I if there was one thing that I could teach a human being, to help them actually have this vessel run properly, it would be how to actually be with your emotions, how to and I have a whole method I teach called the Oneness method of how to actually embody and be with them that you know, one session changes people’s lives. So lots of different ways to connect. Love to hear from anybody and everybody.

Brandon Handley 59:38
Awesome, guys. Well reach on out to magic. Let him know you heard him here. And thanks again for being here.

Magick 59:44
Yeah, thanks, Brandon. I appreciate it. It was great being here with you great, insightful questions and I appreciate your consciousness and good to connect and to be with your audience. Thank you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai