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Derek Webster is lead pastor at Grace Pointe, a multi-campus church based in Naperville, Illinois. He is also an international teacher and coach. Derek has written two books, and has two podcasts called “7 Minutes on Earth” and “1:28.” His company, Wenwyn, helps leaders navigate the nexus of faith and culture. He and his wife, Melissa, have three children, two grandchildren, and one more grandchild on the way.

Visit Derek over at https://www.wenwyn.com/

Unknown Speaker 0:00
Your journey has been an interesting one up to hear you’ve questioned so much more than those around you. You’ve even questioned yourself as to how you could have grown into these thoughts. Am I crazy? When did I begin to think differently? Why do people in general appear so limited as Bob process? Rest assured, you are not alone, the world is slowly waking up to what you already know inside yet can’t quite verbalize. Welcome to the spiritual dough podcast, the show that answers the questions you never even knew to ask, but knew the answers to questions about you this world, the people in it? And most importantly, how do I proceed now moving forward? We don’t claim to have all the answers but we sure do love Living in the Time for another hit of spiritual dub with your host, Brandon Handley. Let’s get right to today’s episode

Brandon Handley 0:41
of the spiritual tube. I’m on today with Derek Webster, who’s the lead pastor at Grace point a multi campus church based in Naperville, Illinois. He’s also an international teacher and coach Derek has written two books and has two podcasts called seven minutes on earth and 128. His company Win Win helps navigate the nexus of faith and culture. He and his wife, Melissa have three children, two grandchildren and one more grandchild on the way and I pause there because I saw him right before report, we started this conversation how, hey, you look young, you look youthful he looks fry and full of energy. And that’s good. Good for you, man.

Derek Webster 1:19
I feel young, youthful, Spry and full of energy.

Brandon Handley 1:21
There you go. Wonderful. Wonderful. So I always like to start us off with the whole idea, right? That we are spiritual conduits, right? We’re conduits for a god divine, whatever is kind of coming through us. And the idea is that you and I meeting connecting today’s is somewhat like fate, if you will, something like that something along those lines, part of the grand design, if you will. And there’s going to be somebody who’s tuned in and listening to this podcast, and there’s a message is coming through you that only you can deliver at this time space in place. What is that message today? Derek?

Derek Webster 1:53
Yeah. Well, I’m not a Christian fatalist. If, you know, I don’t think the math predetermines everything. But I agree. I think that that I think this is a moment that was planned before history. And, and so really, if I can help your listeners, grab some confidence, and seize their moment in time, I would love to do that. I wrote a book called your mess, God’s masterpiece, right here. And it’s all about the life of Joseph. And here’s a guy who goes from obscurity to be the second most powerful person in all of Egypt. And yet, not only is that story remarkable how in the world is he sees the moment Wait, when he’s in front of Pharaoh, he goes really from an insecure little brat. to that. How do you get there without channeling Donny Osmond. And you know, Joseph in the multicolored dreamcoat, and all of that, but then the second half of his life is all about what happens once you are transformed. So actually, more time is spent on him reconciling with his family then, is spent even from him going from obscurity to the second in charge. So how do you arrive at a moment where you’re in front of a pharaoh is the first question because so many of us have a longing for greatness. And then what do you do? And once you find yourself there, how do you have the confidence to navigate the moment? And then Joseph life we see that? Well, confidence is really rooted in humility. But God had to take him on a journey to get to humility. Because humility is actually deeply rooted in spirituality. It’s rooted in the transcendent.

Brandon Handley 3:28
I mean, that’s great. And the I think the idea I’m not super familiar with the story, right? Yeah. Like you and I talked a little bit about it before, but in terms of like, you know, this longing for greatness and then having to become, you know, gain this humility so that you get to that point. What does that what does that look like in a modern? What’s a modern, like, likeness to that that you would share?

Derek Webster 3:54
Or Well, I mean, we celebrate those kinds of stories, right? We celebrate the kinds of stories that people who somehow find their greatness they find their voice, whether they’re a great poet, whether they’re a great musician, you know, how does YouTube become become YouTube? Has Coldplay become Coldplay? How does Bruce become Bruce? Or we look at politicians. This afternoon, I was on a bike ride and I was listening to a podcast with Conan O’Brien and President brock obama. How does Obama go from obscurity to President? And so we celebrate the arc the result of that in real time, all the time. We love greatness when it’s revealed. But there’s something about the journey of that that tends to be a mystery. And so what happens is all these biographies are written. And they talk about luck. They talk about talent. They talk about personality, but very few really addressed what the Bible addresses when it comes to Joseph’s life, which is what do you do if you’re like in a backwater, you have a longing to be great But you’re born into a broken, blended family, like Joseph was. It’s highly dysfunctional. Even though he’s daddy’s favorite. He’s also alienated and strange from his family. He has visions, early on, that he’s so dumb, he decides to share them with everybody else, because that’s really going to help family issues especially tells him how great he’s going to be one day. And then they think, well, let’s, let’s get rid of this guy. And let’s bring him down to our level. I mean, they dip his, his dad’s you know, it’s because he’s his dad’s favorite son. And the reason for that is he’s born to the wife that he loves. But you have all these other sons in the house, they’re all vying for daddy’s affection. And so how, how did Joseph How do you go from that backwater? You know, Texas, broken blended, you know, how do you how do you do that? And then get to second in charge, as an Israelite in an Egyptian world? How do you get to those levels of cultural influence? And what the world talks up I think to luck remotely with it was just luck. Actually, what we read is that there’s actually a process to it, which is, it’s not so much about luck, as much as is that sometimes God leads you to places that you don’t necessarily want to be in order to get to the places where he wants you. And the design of that is to deflate the ego, and to elevate sense of transcendence ease so that you have a deep sense of who you are. You know, it’s two years. So the story of Joseph is kind of interesting to Joseph. Right. 12 Brothers, he’s got some sisters, gets filled out by his brothers, clan of a caravan of ishmaelites, picks him up, takes them to Egypt winds up really being a servant in potter’s house, Potter’s the chief of the guard for Pharaoh. Okay, so that’s extraordinary. But, you know, so what? Well, he’s got this character, suddenly, he already makes an adjustment. He’s no longer a brat. He’s now on his own. And he’s on his own in a foreign language with a foreign tongue. And so he decides, okay, I’m just going to work hard at this. And so when he does, he starts to elevate through the ranks. The challenges now he has a circumstance out of his control. His wife thinks he’s hot. I mean, the text in the Bible actually, literally says he was really good looking. And he’s really smart. He’s really good looking. And it’s like Brad Pitt in the movie, right? You just, gosh, Ken’s gonna have anything else. He’s unjustly charged, and he goes straight to prison. While he’s in prison, and prison in Egyptian culture. Ancient World isn’t a pleasant place to be. He’s a foreigner. And yet, he starts to be noticed for his wisdom and his discernment. Then a baker and a cut bear a cut. There’s a guy who tasted the poison for the king. They get sent to prison for political reasons. Joseph serving the guys in prison. I mean, how low Do you have to be to serve the prisoners? Right? Like, you think all you have freedom of movement is like, you know, in our heads, we’re thinking, you know, escaped Alcatraz. He’s the guy does the laundry, right? He’s like, everywhere, but in the ancient world is a little different. And so he’s kind of he’s serving the prisoners.

They go, we’ve had these disturbing dreams. Now remember, he hasn’t had dreams since he was a kid. He says, What are they? He says, here’s what they are. He says he has what it means one of us gonna die, the other one’s gonna make it back. So before, so he predicts all that accurately. And before the cup bear goes back to Pharaoh, Joseph, last ditch effort as you know, thenI I mean, something of doing well. And here it’s unjust. Like, he says, Please remember me. Well, here’s the deal. Two years go by, and nothing. Like, zero. So what’s the point? Like why is he in prison for two years and justly Oh, what was what’s the divine have to do with that? Well, in that moment, God is saying, I’m gonna remove all sense of you thinking how awesome you are in this moment? Because when he stands in front of Pharaoh, when he’s finally called up, two years later, the pharaoh has the disturbing dreams in the cupboard goes I know a guy. He’s dressed up as Egyptian because that’s how you present before the Pharaoh. And Pharaoh goes, Hey, here, you can interpret dreams. And here’s what he says. He says, Well, I think you might have heard wrong, because here’s the deal. I don’t know if I can interpret your dream. I really don’t. But I can ask God And so what we see here is a guy who’s different, very different than the early bratty kid. He’s like walking around the ancient world and a cut of many colors, not something you want to do people have a, you know, a revenge contract out on your family. And so obviously, you know, that story ends well, and he becomes second in charge. And then suddenly, he’s confronted with his family comes back, and they don’t recognize them, which is heartbreaking. And he has to navigate this other stuff. But he navigates it as a different person. He’s still in charge. He’s still like, admirable, but we tend to think, Oh, it’s the end of the story, like wrap it up, like he’s made it right to the credits. But God’s going, No, no, I’m not, I’m not done here. And so because he has this humility, that lends him a confidence, even when his family politics gets a little crazy. He manages to navigate that with great wisdom and discernment. And at the end, at the very end of his life, what we find is that his two kids who are half Egyptian, are actually grafted into God’s promising God’s people. So it’s like a remarkable thing, you know, but, and I think it’s so modern in so many ways. Now. Yeah, we don’t have like a nation of Egypt or anything. Look, we got massive pop culture, we have global, we have globalization, we have transnationalism, we have strings of influence like never before. And there’s a lot of people sitting in their living rooms going, Hey, I have a desire, like, with someone look. And they just don’t know, how does this thing, work and the problem, most of the times, they’re doing so much of this, you know, and so they spirituality, God, is really needed, because what happens is, it starts to take your focus off of all this and the injustice of it all. And will they ever see me and will ever live my dream? And it begins to say, okay, maybe something else need to happen, maybe I need to work on me. Maybe I need to navigate these relationships a little differently. Maybe, you know, there’s, there’s a, there’s a flux and a flow, so that God can begin to kind of break you down so that when you’re built up, you’re actually the you that you longed to be. And that’s really the key. Right?

Brandon Handley 12:13
So, if, if I’m following you, I mean, you know, the story is awesome, right? I can see kind of the, you know, modern day equivalents, and so many different applications, right? And where else can I? Where else can I Where else can I lay this story over? And it makes sense. And I can see it. The part that I would probably touch on, mostly is, you know, the humility that comes from spirituality. What do you mean by spirituality to yourself? It

Derek Webster 12:41
is it? Certainly the sense of the transcendent? Right, right. The first question that we all have to ask is, where do we even come up with the notion of God and notion of trying to get back to a god is where do we come up with the notion of a transcendent if there’s no transcendent? So some people like well, we made it up to explain the volcano that erupted. And it’s like, whoa, wait a second, we were migratory, before we settled under volcanoes, so that doesn’t fully explain it. And so here’s what the transcendent does for you. The transcending gives you a sense of place. And it allows you to begin a search for the transcendent personal, because the minute you start to search for existential meaning, and you start to go Okay, wait a second, is it possible that I’m not at the center of this universe? Because so much of our lives are about us, and we go, maybe there’s something bigger even in the world I’m trying to navigate. What happens is, our our hearts and our experience begin to open up, open us up to possibilities that we actually didn’t recognize before. And then we can start saying, okay, is the transcendent, impersonal? Is it multi personal? Is it eminently personal. And, of course, it could keep falling down the line. I happen to think it’s eminently personal. It’s singular. It’s a triune. God, I think it’s the one described in the Bible, but I, you know, this transcendence, it begins to give you a sense of place years ago, before Angela Merkel became prime minister, president of Germany, her predecessor was a noted atheist, and wasn’t a bad guy. Nice guy, you know, but when he was sworn in, because he was an atheist, he refused to put his hand on the Bible. And it was kind of a small minor hubbub, in kind of in Europe at the time. What bothered people is what was his what was so interesting about it, what bothered people wasn’t so much whether he believed or not in the Bible, that they were like, a lot of people like they didn’t even believe in that. But it was the sense of where does his ego stop if there’s no recognition that maybe There’s something bigger than me. Who is actually at the end of that train?

Brandon Handley 15:10
Yeah, that’s I mean, that’s that’s a good point, right? If you if you don’t have a connection to something greater than yourself, then even if you’re serving this community, like, Why, what’s the purpose behind it?

Derek Webster 15:24
The community? Where’s this SEO thing? Right? I mean, look, I mean, your own family, I’ll let you do. Kids will let you down.

Brandon Handley 15:35
While I go back to it, like, you know, the sense of transcendent, you were saying, it seems to me like you think is eminently personal, personal, personal. So, you know, I think that gets me to this, this idea of the, you know, the awakening or the transcendent that you have, and I believe somebody says, like this, your testimony to, you know, connection. Yeah.

Derek Webster 15:58
Yeah. And that’s, is that.

Brandon Handley 16:03
And that’s subjective, right. Like, I mean, you can’t force somebody else to feel that for you. And somebody else can’t feel it as you Solo is wholly subjective. Yeah.

Derek Webster 16:11
So wholly subjective. No. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, w h wholly subjective? No, I think it’s no, because I think it’s a combination of subjective and objective. I’ll give you an example. It’s subjective, that I’m in love with my wife. Yeah, right. But there are objective indications that I’m in love with my wife.

Brandon Handley 16:38
Sure, sure. Right. So what would you call it? You know, to get to have that experience, right, that transcendent experience? How could you help God? So

Derek Webster 16:51
it does come from the emptying of yourself, it really does. At some point, you got to take a bet on that something is out there that’s bigger than you. And you have to be willing to give that give yourself up. for that. I feel what the moment was for me, I am. You know, I started kind of really super intellectually, trying to figure out if God is alive, is he real? Is it made up? Is it cultural? Is it religious? If God is there, what kind of God are we talking about? You know, he she it spirit? Is all life suffering kind of the Buddhist mantra, isn’t it? Is it like, what are we looking at? And I started kind of whittling my way down mentally. But ultimately, it wasn’t, I didn’t get there mentally. So my mom, my dad was kind of a brain. And he was really smart, and we would have all those conversations. But my mom was the most joyful, both my parents have passed, my mom was the most joyful person I ever knew. And she suffered my whole life from a pretty horrific, horrific disease. And it’s one that would cause you know, drop most people to their knees. When when I was born, she was five foot eight, when she died, she was four foot 11 one leg, like, I mean, serious suffering, and yet, was more had more like, you know, when you live with someone you can tell between fakeness and realness. You know, we see someone in their underwear, it’s a little hard to hide. And families are kind of like that. And the challenge with living with my mom was she was genuine. And she had something that I didn’t have. And I had, I was healthy, and I was angry. And she was sick, and she was happy. And I just got ticked, to be honest with you. I just got I got a little bit fresh. And I told her, I said, You believe in Jesus, and you believe in God, and look what God did to you. So why would I want to follow that God? And he said, I’ll never forget it because it was one of those kind of zingers. You know, but it was really truthful. And it turned out is also really insightful. But she said, Derek, I would rather be sick and know Jesus to be healthy like you and not knowing he was the thing about that, that first of all, it’s a great comeback line, right? Like, I mean, come on, like game over. Right? Right. But here’s the kicker was she meant it? But I couldn’t wrap my head around. Okay, wait a second. If someone’s making it up to feel good. What and they had the possibility of being healthy. And you know, like whole, like, I don’t get one why would you not choose the whole unhealthy? Right? Even if it means losing this imagination construction, this guy thing that you’ve made up? Why wouldn’t you ditch that for the healthy? And it was the first time I realized, well, wait a second, maybe? I don’t know at all. Maybe I don’t see it all. And maybe there’s another reality that exists. And you know, we talked about when you’re talking about the supernatural, really, you’re talking about two realities in the same time and space. And most people like that’s not possible. It’s one reality, but it actually it is possible. And the way that I I can best describe it is this. nearly everybody knows what it’s like to be lonely in a crowded room. Right. But others would say that’s not possible. You’re in a crowded room. That’s the reality. But you’re going yeah, but I’m lonely. Yeah, prove it. Yeah. Like, I don’t know what to tell you. I’m just telling you, I’m lonely in a crowded room. And here’s the kicker, which is more powerful. The reality of your loneliness, or the reality of the crowded room. And so we know what it is to have realities that coexist in the same space. And so what I did for myself is I just kind of came to a point where I said, Okay, if this is real, like, if God if you’re there, I’ll give you everything nice to know, you. Don’t get everything. Like if I say that, I’ll give it all. And for me, at least, things change that dramatically. So that’s what?

Brandon Handley 21:24
Yeah, no. I mean, that’s in line with I think, a lot of these religions, right, like, I mean, I say it’s like, you know, once you kind of give yourself wholly over,

Derek Webster 21:38
it does the question, because it is up for you. Is it right? Or is it personal, this is why I say believe in the personal transcendent. And here’s what I mean. countered with being be if I can’t count the number of errors every day, if I spend the thing X number of times if I go and bathe in the river so many times. In other words, what happens is, when we reduce the transcendent, to a set of I’ll do this, in order to gain access to that. The challenge is, you’re gonna get sick one day, you’re gonna miss the count. And now you have to come up with a system to reconcile that. Yeah, I don’t care I don’t really want to talk with it’s, it’s the kind of relationship that’s accounting kind of relationship. I think it’s a personal relationship. And because of that, I think that there’s grace, and there are still standards. So for me, there’s nothing I can do. Right? That’s going to somehow magically transformed me. I’ve already tried that. But what I can do is continue to kind of recognize my place in the universe know that my life is actually owned by someone else. And then what happens is, my world actually opens up for me. And so now the transformation part comes as a natural result of ownership and control and meet letting go. And so a lot of my process has just been, okay, man, I gotta let go of this. And me too, like, you know, this thing.

Brandon Handley 23:15
It says, Yeah, just surrender and letting go is something that comes up? Well,

Derek Webster 23:20
I think, mechanism not that much different in different areas of my life, because I think most things are character transformations. If we really, if you really distill it down, right, you’re going from angry to loving, right? You’re or non angry or peaceful. And so it’s a character transformation. So the question becomes, what’s the mechanism? And the answer is, I don’t know, it depends on how stubborn I am in that characteristic. You know, like, St. JOHN, the Cross has something called the dark night of the soul. And he talks about how, look, you know, there are some things that have to be drummed out of you by absence. And until you’re like, Okay, alright, so I got to learn devotion, kind of just by deciding there are things that that I think relinquish because the transcendent thing isn’t working for you. Right, this is like

Brandon Handley 24:15
Sure, that’s a good word, though. I think I think you threw out a good one there too. If you don’t mind me jumping in. There’s a devotion right? So kind of like, would you say outside of this counting, counting the numbers or counting all the prayers and like this whole counting system? Yeah. That if you just kind of live your life in devotion, or in service of that, that’s how you kind of read it and that’s like that, that’s that becomes like your

Derek Webster 24:38
Yeah, I would go even further than probably what yours looks like life, lived their lives into those into something or someone bigger than them. Right. And the people who get closest they’re like Publix, I’m in a public service or I love to bring comedians are great. I love being bring joy to people or, you know, they it’s not viewed purely in terms of Look at me. And so and they feel as if they’re contributing to something greater. So, when you devote yourself you can, you can devote yourself to the thing. And, and that’s okay, I happen to think that picking the thing can be problematic for some people, they have a clear call, this is the thing, I’m gonna go eradicate cancer in my lifetime. And that’s a phenomenal my concern has always been, what if you go after like, I’m gonna eliminate horseshoes on horses, and you never see the car come along. And so you think you’re making this big dent, you know? And, and it’s not that so I have to, for me, I have to kind of go Okay, first, I trust the outcome to God. Second, I’m just going to focus on whatever is in front of me. And third, because I’m devoted, the question becomes does my inner world match the aspiration of this God that I follow? And so thankfully, for me, I have a kind of a standard, I’d like a, you know, we have a sacred text in the Bible. That kind of helps inform kind of standards and give some guidance and teachings that’s why I so like the story of Joseph is because there’s like, people tend to look at that and they go, Wait, isn’t that a musical? Like, isn’t that like, what is that all about? Why is that guy even in there? Is he just there to get is that story there just to get the Israelites in Egypt so they can get out again by the Red Sea is that was there. But actually, it’s super instructive on like, what it means. I would say, not just find God, but really follow God and realize your potential. And that’s why I named the book your mess, God’s masterpiece guide. I think Joseph has this great line in there. He says, what you designed for evil, God had for good. And God has the ability to take a crooked stick and draw a straight line. You know, and that’s good news for me, because I’m like a cricket stick and God can do something.

Brandon Handley 26:58
Now for sure, I think that also indicates that you know, just because what you think this tool or this thing or this action is pleased in times face is designed for? It was actually designed for something else for

Derek Webster 27:12
your benefit? Think about it this way. So ultimately, he didn’t Joseph like, like too long to be even greater. Yeah.

Brandon Handley 27:21
Yeah, absolutely. Right. Yeah. I mean, it’s, you know, what’s the what’s the Yeah, you know, GE has ways that we know not have right, like, I mean, we’re saying, we don’t know, and that’s one of the things to me, is that that, um, you know, here? Well, here we are, we’re trying to figure it all out on our own, right. If we can’t accept this x two thing, how can we ever accept this divine grace? That’s innate for everybody. And always, they’re always available for everybody. And here we are, we’re, we’re plodding away thinking it’s just us sauce, it’s gonna be a long, cold, hard road, and it’s gonna be tough. And then you know, if you if you can open up to this other space in place, like we’re talking about here, some of the things become possible that you had no idea as long as you like, oh, by the way, it’s interesting that performance coach is talking about. So

Derek Webster 28:10
I love what you said, you look at like so much gurus, they talk about losing yourself, right? Even the state of flow is, which is, you know, which is this mental state being in the zone is the state of losing yourself. And so it’s interesting to me that, for you to be the very best person you have to be to give up some aspect of control and be other focused, it doesn’t mean that you’re not that you don’t have free will, it doesn’t mean that you can’t do great things. It just means that at some point, you’ve got to go Wait, my life isn’t about me.

Unknown Speaker 28:47
Yeah, yeah. I

Brandon Handley 28:48
mean, it’s, it’s a tough, it’s tough term sometimes. Right? I mean, I’m no stranger to it. And I’m not saying that. I’ve even made the turn wholly myself. Yeah, but I’m familiar with some of the moves to make that that change. Right. And so it’s definitely interesting. And, you know, to do it, I think, I think you touched on it a little bit before, it’s like you have to do it. In this fake manner, will never serve you. Right. But, you know, you got to get there somehow. And I’m always a big fan of when I first my first podcast was called fatherhood for the rest of us, right. And I started it for all I was doing all the right things, but for the wrong reasons. Right. And then there was a somewhere in between there that that I fell into the right space in place that my audio had to match my video at a certain point in time, it just it just happened. And um, you know, ever since then, it’s just been this this road towards, you know, how can I be of service and not just to give everything of myself away, but like to be a true service other than myself and as

Derek Webster 29:52
eminently things and I think people tell them to esoteric out, but it’s not it’s practical, right and it routes you and he ability, which gives you confidence allows you to seize your moment. Yeah.

Brandon Handley 30:07
Sure. I love that line. I think that’s fantastic. I really do. So rock Yeah. For you, you know, spiritual speed dating, right? Like so somebody listening today is looking to date you. They’re in the spiritual in the spiritual realm. And, you know, I’ve got 20 questions for every spiritual seeker and I just kind of pick one at random, I think this is a good one for you. Because you’re in there, and you’re working on it with zoos. So yeah.

Derek Webster 30:30
What is the relationship? It’s relationships complimentary. When, when the most great scientists, and most great science, even this, the scientific method really emerged from men or women of faith. And the reason was a sense of discovery. The whole idea that says, Can the transcendent, can I get discovered? Can I be known? I can, if I’m looking at the transcendent, and I believe, for instance, in God, if God created the universe, then I’m curious about the universe. So how did he create it? And so the scientific method at its best, is really a search, where the science in general is at its best is a search for what is true. And in the true, and the transcendent, can go hand in hand, and they’re not divorced from each other. I think one of the great misnomers is people feel like they have to pick between science or God, and, or transcendence or however you decide to coin that. But but I think it’s a it’s a false dichotomy. And I think it’s one that was born out of philosophy and not science.

Brandon Handley 31:45
I know we can go deeper now, but we don’t have too much time. But I think that that’s a great answer. And I feel like you’ve answered that one before. So

Derek Webster 31:51
no, not really, I get it. Sometimes I won’t come up to you at all. Like, I get the you know, even this morning, I get questions like how do I know that the prophecies are true? How do I know that I can trust this? I get probably more questions about trust and significance. So whenever science comes up as a question to me, usually it’s framed with how do I know I can trust it or not? But it’s not it’s not something I deal with every day.

Derek Webster 32:41
looking to totally get an initial starting. Right. All right. I’m curious. I want to know, you know,

Brandon Handley 32:25
Got it? No, I appreciate that. It’s just it was a great answer. And I think that I like I liked it I liked the idea right there complimentary You know, you’re you’re you’re searching for the truth what makes us who we are and what makes things work and and in search for, you know, our inner we’re

Brandon Handley 32:52
we’ll think the right now for sure, for sure. Derek has been fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on today. Love Love loves in your car, which putting out there sure.

Derek Webster 33:02
Where should I send this thing goes to lynda.com. That’s a place that they can go another place they can get to is gracepoint.us. So gra CEPOINT with an e.us and that’ll get you to me. But But yeah, those are two great spots. You can go you can find me on Facebook or Insta or you can go to parrot cleat press. I have an author page there. Thank you so much. Appreciate it, Brandon. Awesome. JACK. Thanks so much for being on today.

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