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Without watering down your faith.

Great conversation with Cory Walker as we discuss being groomed for church leadership, leading a community… and leaving it all behind as his path diverted from the expectations from others.

http://www.churchbeentheredonethat.com/

Brandon Handley 0:00
54321 Hey there spirits of dope. It is Brandon Handley and today we are on with Corey Walker, who is the author of boiling down your religion without watering down your faith. Cory spent about 20 years being a minister correct me if I’m wrong anywhere in here this but a minister in an Pentecostal, Pentecostal I don’t even know how to say it right. Like I said so in a Pentecostal church and stepped out after 20 years of being in a leadership role and kind of took refuge in his own heart on my call, and the sides live just outside of the church confines and more in like I said, john Hart said about right Corey

Cory Walker 0:53
Davis some sort of modular.

Brandon Handley 0:55
So you know, Cory I always like to say that we are Are vessels of the divine right? The Creator speaks through us. Right. And and when people are turning in tuning into this podcast, they’re tuning in to hear a message that is being delivered through you to them. And my question to you, as we start this thing off is what what is, what is something somebody out there needs to hear today that can only come through you?

Cory Walker 1:26
Wow, great question.

Cory Walker 1:30
Well, there’s several different things. I could go here, but the long and the short of it is don’t be afraid to make a change, if you feel like it, if it’s following your heart. So many of us were raised that particular way. We’re taught what to believe, and taught how to be taught what to think without being really taught how to think. And you if you’re just believing doctrine or someone else’s beliefs, and you’re trying to hold to those instead of actually listening in Your heart towards the divine. And my case, God would be wanting to say to you that you could easily spend years following something that that you end up feeling like you’ve wasted time later on. So don’t be afraid to make a change. I guess that’s my, that’s my off the cuff response.

Brandon Handley 2:16
Sure, sure. I love that. I mean, and you did right, you made the made this change to 20 years and I think the the line that comes to mind is you know, don’t put your ladder up against the wrong wall right through and and that there’s really nothing. And I think that a lot of people are afraid to kind of go chase this thing, but what you’re saying is, even even after maybe climbing halfway up the ladder, maybe you’ve already made it all the way up to the top, but

Unknown Speaker 2:47
it’s okay to make a change. It’s okay to climb

Brandon Handley 2:49
back down and go climb another ladder. Is that what I’m hearing you say?

Cory Walker 2:53
Yeah, definitely, especially if the letter sounds or letters keeping more consistent, like what you’re feeling in your heart. I just know. You know, it’s Been a pastor for so many years, I met with so many people talk with so many other leaders who, who knew how to toe the company line. But in private, they would say, Well, what do you think about this, though, that doesn’t really sit with what we believe and what we teach. But it’s like they had their own private belief system outside of the public one that they were telling everyone else. And you just can’t do that for extended period of time without, you know, driving yourself crazy. Because the inconsistency just couldn’t live that kind of dualism. And so you try to modify what it is you teach and teach the parts of what you have what you’ve learned and believed over the years that still ring true with you, and leave the other parts out of the fact is the whole. The whole last two years, my ministry I never preached even one sermon from the Old Testament part of the Bible, because it seemed to communicate that there was an angry God who was demanding that you behave a certain way. And if you didn’t do you’re in big trouble. And that just didn’t jive with the message of Jesus, which was what’s taught in the New Testament to me, and I understand the theological demands sticks that people do that night to neatly tie the two together because I went to Bible college but that doesn’t mean that the average Joe and common sense of really why don’t we are under grace, why do I have to do and you fill in the blank whatever it is your local church is telling you you have to do in order to be a good Christian.

Brandon Handley 4:18
Sure, sure. And I think the thing is, it’s a shame that Christianity’s you know, kind of been fractured in so many different ways away from the the, the true meaning of the messaging right now. And what the hell do I know though? I really don’t know too much. I don’t I haven’t been involved with too much of it. But what I do know is that when I have a conversation with you know, somebody such as yourself that you know, is really just been immersed in it and and they find Jesus or I think, what do they call it like a, you know, the Jesus consciousness, right? It’s kind of like, you know, one of the things that gets tossed out there is what’s in those books is kind of like truth and from the heart, but how its interpreted and spun back around is either liberal or kind of fit fitting the needs of the organization that’s driving it.

Cory Walker 5:19
Now let’s move on been so true. You know, parts of the specifically if you read the gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and john, telling me all about the life of Christ in His, the economy of Christ, if you want to love your neighbor, pray for your enemies. Love those who persecute you go the extra mile turn the other cheek, those kind of things rang really took my heart, but the way in which the church lives out the teachings of Christ, and that’s them together with with a lot of the old, old covenant Old Testament law type, you know, thou shalt nots, and just the whole organizational structure that’s set up to basically support itself. I just reached a point when I realized that you Man formed these nonprofit organizations that we call churches to supposedly help the members who are the people in their spiritual walk. But somewhere along the way, the organization starts to expect the members to do what’s in its best interest and spin it

Brandon Handley 6:17
around. I would like to I would like to kind of caveat it right. This has been your right. Yeah. So I mean, because there’s that there’s definitely got to be a couple out there. Right. They all Yeah.

Cory Walker 6:29
Yeah. I don’t want to categorize across the board is my experience. Yeah, with the with eight or 10 churches that I was either attending or on staff at over the years, the older the organization, the more likely it is that the the, the principles get minimized, and the traditions get emphasized. And as a result, it’s about self sustaining many times instead of about really bringing life and health to, you know, the average individual and once I realized that then I just took Couldn’t, I just couldn’t myself, continue to be a part of one. And I’ve even thought now that I’m not on staff someplace or a pastor someplace that, well, maybe I should just attend this church or that church, and I’ve stepped into a couple for service here there. And it just doesn’t take long when you’ve been in leadership for a while for you to start hearing the same familiar, you know, course and tone of what it is we’re supposed to do. And it was supposed to is that kind of wore me out, I think.

Brandon Handley 7:27
Yeah, no, that makes sense, right? It’s kinda like all the shoulds and codes that we could be doing. Well, let’s, let’s roll it back here for a second. So let’s tell, you know, tell anybody listening today that, you know, what type of church were you? a minister at and a leader and then what does that even mean? Right, because like I said, we talked about Pentecostals. Let’s talk a little bit about what that is and what that’s built on top

Cory Walker 7:54
of, if you could, sure. Yeah. Well, essentially, within Christianity you have two veins. You have Catholics Protestants. And in the Protestant vein, you have thousands, literally thousands of what we call denominations, which are different or different organizations, like Baptist or Methodist or Pentecostal, different Pentecostal denominations. But the bottom line is, each one of them has a different set of standards and rules for themselves that they believe slightly different than the other ones. And the fact is, all of them would tell you that they were originally formed because some people who were a part of some other organization said, Well, we think we got a new enlightenment or we got just a little bit better understanding. So we’re going to form our own. And so I grew up in those in most of those denominations in America anyway, sit within a category called have called evangelicals, and many times, also called fundamentalists, and those are people who have a belief that there’s a divinely inspired scripture, and in our case, the Bible, and that is to be literally interpreted and applied to your own life and there things in the scripture that I have discovered that just didn’t seem to sit well with literally applying them to my own life as an example that were like there’s a there’s a passage in the Old Testament that talks about one of the prophets, I believe it was Elijah, what could have been Elijah, I was getting confused. And it says that, that these this prophet was walking in the woods and have a group of juveniles it says are teenagers came out and started teasing him because he had a bald head, he didn’t have any hair. And he says that he called down a curse upon them, and a bear around out of the woods and devoured some of them and wounded the others. So this was the man of God that we’re supposed to be you know, maybe patterning our lives after looking up to her as a fundamentalist your thinking was, I could get so special that it wouldn’t be okay for kids to even tease me about my bald head. And if I was upset about it, I could call on a curse upon them and kind of wild animal could come and attack them. Did this didn’t sit well with my concept of God or with my understanding of Christ and his philosophy of loving your enemies and things like that, but yet, fundamentalists have to weave all those stories together in the Bible and all those truths and things that are there and try to apply them to their daily lives just becomes quite a quite a conundrum.

Brandon Handley 10:22
So they’re a fundamentalist, and they’re applying it literally. They’re, they’re not using like that in any symbolic terms,

Cory Walker 10:31
or allegory. Yeah, it’s one of those things. That’s not really how it’s taught. And most of the most of the denominations it’s taught as this was an Old Covenant time where God related to man in a different way than he does now. And so things have been different back then than they do now. And that you know, kind of how we smooth it over and help people feel better about you know, the Sodom and Gomorrah and the gods flooding the earth and you know, everyone but Noah being killed There’s no assembly being killed, things like that. But I remember as a, as a father of young children go into, you know, our evangelical church and just thinking, I don’t want to send my kids to Sunday school because I don’t want anybody to teach them some of these stories. And I don’t even know, I don’t know how the, I don’t know how the Sunday school teachers going to teach them these stories, or they’re going to teach him, you better behave, or God’s gonna get really mad at you, and rain down fire and brimstone on you, you know, or turn you into a pillar of salt or whatever the other story is in the Old Testament. So, you know, fundamentalists do believe in a literal interpretation of Scripture. And therefore those things would not be allegory or symbolic things that actually happened. And God was relating to man, I personally now, I still hold great reverence for the scriptures and find a lot of truth in there. But I just see them as being written. While there’s a lot of truth, they’re written from a man’s point of view. And man was walking in the light that he had at the time and the culture was different, and therefore, even some places like Like even one of the even one of the passages where supposedly Moses wrote the passage, it was handed down through generations of verbal, you know, communication that eventually recorded but it says right in the passage, Moses was the greatest of leaders at all times. So they’re like, let’s he writes about himself for Charlie aggrandized themselves? Or is this really you know, what’s going on? So, it’s just, you know, you just gotta understand that people are just, you know, culture was different back then. And it was recorded from man’s point of view, and not necessarily, from God’s words, to my ears to the pin on the paper type of inspiration.

Brandon Handley 12:37
Sure, yeah, I definitely get that I definitely get that. You know, but I got a wonder too, like, you know, so, this was also, you know, book that was compiled, you know, a library books, right, compiled, you know, way back when, and the translations over time as well. Right. And then one of the things that kind of pops up. I’m a fan of this guy, bill donohue, who, who, you know, has some pretty cool stuff on on YouTube. But he talks about, like, you know, what they were saying then could be real similar to so I’m hearing you talk about this, you know, called the curse and the bear chews them down, you know? And I’m thinking of how he would translate it and say it, it’s how we would say shooting the bull. Right? What was the other meaning of you know, calling that bear down on them? Right, you know, was that the bear within the man coming out and like, kind of raging out against some of those? Those are the types of things right, it’s really kind of a formula and you gotta you gotta wonder exactly, you got to really wonder and kind of play with it because I don’t personally feel like this was a book that was written to instill fear so much. Higher divinity.

Cory Walker 13:51
Yeah, I think it’s it was written, to help us to understand, in fact is to understand what God was like and, in fact, Jesus Himself So as you know, he comes incarnate. It’s like God in the flesh to show us what God was really like. But then he goes around loving the least of these, if you will, and hanging out with people that it wasn’t cool to hang out with prostitutes and tax collectors and all these people the riffraff of the day. And he really makes the religious people are really mad about it, you know, the Thera sees and the sadness is they’re getting all ticked off all the time. Because Jesus not really interested in in hanging with them. He’s hanging out with the least of these. So I think you see, at least from the perspective and the story of Christ that the gods are more concerned about the little guy than he is how spiritual react or you know how much we’ve got our ducks in a row.

Unknown Speaker 14:42
Now, fair enough, fair enough.

Brandon Handley 14:43
So, Pentecostal, what does that mean? Was it meant to mean to be a Pentecostal or Penn is a Pentecostal or Pentecost? Yeah,

Cory Walker 14:49
sir. Pentecostal. Um, yeah, essentially Pentecostalism started around 1900 and it’s a form of denomination several denominations of one of Christianity, that, that believes in the teachings of the Day of Pentecost, which is found in the book of Acts in the Bible. And it talks about a variety of gifts that God gives to man’s spiritual gifts. But Pentecostals focus in on one, which is called speaking in tongues, and it’s one of the more controversial ones. Or if you may have heard of, you know, holy rollers or people swinging from the chandeliers or wildfire, and all this weird kind of stuff in Christianity over the years, and over the last hundred hundred years or so, it’s all about Pentecostals, and it’s about having an emotional experience with God. And as a result, feeling like you’re greater connected to him, and I can really value and understand that desire, though. It’s also very centered around worship, which in modern context is, is the singing and playing of music, to bring reverence to God and to honor God and to talk about how good he is. But it’s all about what kind of experience in a Pentecostal church what kind of experience you can have when you Get together. It makes you feel good emotionally goosebumps on your arms, you know feeling like God’s presence is right there with you in the room. And all this stuff is inside emphasize you know from our kids church, we’re little kids and go into special special church service for them on Sundays right on up through the youth groups run up through the adult service. And so, you know, God really showed up is what we’d say if you felt you know, something emotional happening when when the worship was going on, or when the preacher was preaching or whatever the case may be.

Brandon Handley 16:31
Sure, no, I mean, I can I can definitely appreciate that. I know that actually just did a did a piece on the word numinous. Right? And it really sounds like it kind of speaks to the same type of space right where you’ve got connection with God or an experience. Um,

Unknown Speaker 16:50
and so,

Brandon Handley 16:52
I love I love it. It’s just sounds to me like it may have been

Unknown Speaker 16:56
over over exalted.

Cory Walker 16:58
Now. What came to focus yeah became the focus instead of me being one way to experience God, maybe it’d be the only way.

Brandon Handley 17:06
Sure not and I can I can definitely appreciate that. It’s very interesting. So the you said that there was a number of gifts and one of them speaking in tongues? What are some of the I mean, I don’t know the Bible myself, right. So how does somebody have the gifts that maybe, maybe some people aren’t aware of?

Cory Walker 17:22
Well, the Bible speaks of different spiritual gifts. And one particular case there’s a short list and then scattered throughout the rest of the Scriptures, that mentions other gifts. Like there’s a gift of spiritual gifts of gifting, where maybe God empowers you to make money, so that you can give that money towards his plans and his services. But then the fancy ones, if you will, the gifts that people were always hoping to have were like words of knowledge and words of wisdom, which would mean you’re speaking in a conversation with somebody and you have, I would call it you have a thought drop into your head and you share that thought with them and then boom, they’re suddenly hit. just overwhelmed was oh my gosh how did you know that or or contacts incredible how did you you know have to there’s no way you could have come by this on your own like God just dropped information into my head to share with you know almost on a profit basis and gift the process he was one of those things as well which was kind of speaking on God’s behalf more so than speaking to predict the future but so there’s all these different gifts and you were told you know this The Bible tells you to seek seek spiritual guests especially those that that build build up the body build one another up. But once again and this is coming across like Korea is the the tainted former pastor that is but but it seems like people are always looking for what we have made them look the best because all this happens most of these things I think God intended for them to be lived out in our daily lives. But something in modern Christianity is that we jam. We instead of seeing the churches who we are every day we see the church as a place we go In an event that we attend, so what happens with the spiritual gifts, what’s important is what happens when you get together. And therefore you’re doing it almost on a platform situation where you’re in front of others. And the man’s tendency to want to look good and pride gets in there. And you know, you never can tell what might happen. So, I chose doors. I’m not going to but I can tell stories.

Brandon Handley 19:23
No, I appreciate that. Right? Like so I mean, it as you’re kind of listing these off, right? without me being a member of a church or without me kind of going through the Bible, you know, this gift of giving is something that speaks to me, right, like, if you’re willing to give to others, then it’s my interpretation or my thought process that you know, the universe is going to continue to give to you, right, God’s gonna give you if you’re giving, you’re going to receive, right. And that’s, that’s kind of one way that I look at it, right. And then as you’re talking about these words of knowledge and wisdom, you know, words of wisdom. It can’t But make me think of the Akashic Records stuff. Right? So just kind of linking like different different. Yeah. Yeah. different spaces and, you know, gift the prophecies. I mean, I don’t know. Right. I think that i think that’s everyone, right? I think that it kind of, to me that kind of rolls back up into, you know, speaking in tongues, right? I just got goosebumps kind of thinking about it, right? Like, it rolls back into feeling that emotion and knowing that you’re kind of, you’re speaking your truth, right. But as you kind of roll back all the way back over to here, like, you know, each person kind of comes up with like, their own epiphany is like, oh, I’ve got a better way to explain it, you end up like, many, many thousands of different ways to kind of embrace and feel connected to God. Right. And, and for each person, I think that experience is going to be individual.

Cory Walker 20:50
Yeah, and I think that’s good because you know, a variety of theory, a variety of belief systems and a variety of ways, is a good thing because it allows each person to find The one that connects best with them. My biggest challenge over the years had been the the competitive nature that sets in. I remember growing up and there’s sometimes a god churches, which is the domination I was a part of, and they kind of cost the combination and they didn’t specifically teach it but you know, my wife grew up in the same denomination and both of us had a conversation where just kind of came away feeling like, you know, if you were a Christian, but you weren’t Assemblies of God, you weren’t quite getting it. All right, and, and you probably know that make it to heaven, but he probably wouldn’t get as many accolades as we would, because we were a part of this something of God. And so I went off, I went off to Bible College. I know that that wasn’t specifically taught in any of the classes, but I came away with the same feeling like we’re the elite. You know, we’ve we’ve got it going on. But one of the pastors in the church that I used to serve that used to say, he used to get up a couple times a year before Easter, the week before Easter, and the week before Christmas, and you get up and announce to the whole congregation, hey, you know, there’s people who only go to church twice a year on Christmas and Easter. And he said, You should invite people to come to our church on those days. Because if they’re going to go to church on twice a year, they should at least come to church or maybe something good could happen in their life, no kind of little dig at the other church. And it’s like they weren’t, you know, good enough, or whatever it is that that had crept in to almost every church scenario that I’ve been a part of, and I think it’s just a part of nature of man. Okay, okay.

Brandon Handley 22:24
No, I mean, that’s, that’s all fair. Right. So, you know, for so you’re a part of this for like, 20 years, last couple parts. You know, you just kind of started to fall out of it. And I’ve read briefly through your book. And you mentioned a book where you kind of helped you to kind of start separating away. Right. And you’ve shown it to one of your leaders. And he got it was like, Yeah, I don’t buy into this because it didn’t sound like it match with his way of thinking. Right,

Unknown Speaker 22:51
exactly. So

Brandon Handley 22:52
I’d love to hear a what was the book that kind of, you know, sure. It kind of changed your mind a little bit. What was that book

Cory Walker 23:01
I’m going to try to get the name right here. It’s a misunderstood God, and the lies that religion tells about him. I think the author was Darren Hufford. And he was a former pastor as well. But he was talking basically the same way that I have been, which is that there’s this God who loves you unconditionally, and has, has bent over backwards to make a way for you to connect with them. But yet religion spends a story, that’s something different, that seems undesirable to many people. And as a result, a lot of folks who want to find God don’t think that they can. And it just really started me thinking, the challenging some of the concepts and really, you know, you read a book and something rings true with you on the page and like, Oh, yeah, I’ve been thinking that for years. I just kept having that, you know, those kind of moments as I was reading the book with my wife, and I was like, wow, and then we just dove into, I don’t know, one point time, was right when I first started reading electronically, I had a I had a book reader at the time, and I remember And that period of time over about a year and a half that we digest, like 60 some different books, all around the same topics of church and what God intended for the church to be and spirituality and different things like that. Now, I’m a part of a men’s book group and we read, you know, a book a month and discuss it on Monday nights and we’re reading stuff that’s outside of the vein of Christianity, which I’ve always found to be very interesting because when you read outside of what’s your typical goto and you find the same truth elsewhere, then it starts to make you think that it’s because the author of the things that you hold dear, likely was the inspire some of the other things that you’re finding elsewhere in college. They called it all truth is God’s truth. Doesn’t matter where you find it. It says true.

Brandon Handley 24:50
Yeah, you know, and I agree with that, right. It’s it’s really interesting to find all these nuggets of truth everywhere. Right. It doesn’t really matter what you’re you find yourself reading, you start to see, like you’re saying kind of the same vein of how even movies, you know, show shows I’m watching. I’m like, Is anybody else seeing what I’m seeing here? Because it’s so it’s so obvious to me the story that’s being told. And again, though, it’s really like we started this, we start this podcast off with, you know, Cory, I’d like you to say something that only somebody else out there is gonna hear and understand. Right? It’s it’s kind of like I the way I’m watching that movie, or series, maybe nothing like what it was intended to be delivered. Right? Right. But I’m receiving it in a certain way, because that’s how I’ve set myself up

Cory Walker 25:45
now. But there’s a divine source that’s enter weaving truths throughout all genres and all aspects of life because because that divine source that I like to call God wants us to understand him and understand life. So So much that he’s willing to inspire people that don’t even know that they’re being inspired by them to share truth

Unknown Speaker 26:06
in a way that Okay,

Brandon Handley 26:08
again, like I mean, you know, something’s coming through you being spoken through you

Unknown Speaker 26:12
right now, this moment that

Brandon Handley 26:15
is intended for somebody else not even intended for you, for me, right now even intended for me and I love this. So here’s a really interesting book. It’s called horror, right? It’s called the vital center of man by he was a an analyst, the psycho psychological analyst, but he was also a orthodox, practicing Orthodox Christian, but he also spent time and about eight years with Zen masters, right. And, you know, one of the things that this one Zen masters said to them, was, it never occurred to me to keep keep weight to keep in my head what I’ve read If I mainly read the Bible or Buddhist books and prayers, I find that only such things that agree with my own thoughts. And I think that that’s what you and I are saying here is that when we’re reading now we’re like, the books are almost a mirror to what we’ve already learned and know, right? And this has been spoken back to you. And I find I found that was like, an amazing moment, right? When I read that line, I was like, holy shit, because I told my wife, I was like, everything that I’m reading is everything I’m already thinking of, and I’m just looking for the words to properly express it.

Cory Walker 27:31
Yeah, right. Some people and some people would say that you, you draw to yourself. There’s kind of a supernatural principle that you draw to yourself with as you’re looking for. You know, I just recently bought a different car. And the for my work vehicle and the type of card is I’d never really had thought about getting one before but once I got them then suddenly I see everywhere. I mean, every time I turn around, has fallen down the street. So it’s like, I didn’t look someone else’s got another one of those just like I do, I see it in part. parking lots everywhere. It’s like your mind becomes attuned to that which you’re used to or that what you’re looking for. And I looked for when I decided that’s what I wanted to buy, I was out there looking for him everywhere. And as a result, I’m My mind is turned on to that. I think it’s the same with what you’re saying what it is that you’re thinking and you’re feeling in your heart. And suddenly you start to see it come alive in the pages of books or in the movies or in the newspaper, on television shows or whatever.

Brandon Handley 28:25
It’s everywhere. It’s everywhere. My first my first blog and my first blog and a couple of my first videos was called just a wit You know, this is called the blue car effect. Right You know, they’re looking for a blue car you see him everywhere is exactly what I’m saying. And, and, you know, I often go through just like what you’re saying once you set that question in your mind you know, the answers start coming up for it right you don’t sure we go look and we Google, we do all these things, but it’s almost easier to ask you know, quote, unquote Ask the universe for an answer. Just let it kind of come to you let it show it will show up. Once you have that question for yourself, the answer will show up. Now you can do it again, you can go hardcore and go hit and all the books and put all this pressure and stress on yourself. But chances are, that answer is gonna show up.

Unknown Speaker 29:18
Right? Totally. Yeah.

Brandon Handley 29:21
So, um, you know, so where are you? I mean, what’s it like, now you’ve left? What was the separation? Like, I’d love to hear kind of like what that was like, and, you know, in in that in that scenario,

Cory Walker 29:32
that was like, divorcing everybody that you held dear. Hmm. And having everybody be mad at you, or at least it felt like it anyway. I’m sure part of its interpretation. But you know, when, you know, we kind of we didn’t really spend a story but you know, when we decided to move we moved. We decided to move when we decide to leave church we we moved out of the community we were part of and moved six hours away to a new area, and it had been On our heart to do it anyway. But this new area was very spiritually minded, but not real big on religion. So church attendance is really down here. But you see all kinds of alternative spiritual pursuits going on. And, and that’s kind of what we felt drawn to not that we were going to, you know, go start reading poems or doing something, you know, there was necessarily new age or this or whatever we still consider ourself Christians, we just felt like we wanted to be around non traditional people, because they’d be, you know, they’re not going to be looking down their nose at us because they don’t show up. And so the Pew on Sunday mornings, so it was a difficult time. Even my folks right now still have, I don’t talk about anymore, but I’m sure that they still shake their head like, I can’t believe you know, we raised this young man. And he, you know, felt this call on his life to go become a pastor. And then he did 25 years and now we just build on the whole thing. But what they don’t understand is my philosophy and I shared my book with them, and I hope that they’re gaining understanding but the philosophy is if we are the Church and that is the body of Christ as Christians, and it’s not the building. And it’s not an organization than whether or not we choose to go sit in the Pew on Sunday mornings are not as real as irrelevant. It’s whether or not we’re following the truth of God as expressed through our life and how we treat others on a daily basis. You know, my friend Jeremy messaged me earlier today and he said, What are you doing on this fine Lord’s day? And he was saying a tongue in cheek because for years for a year or so after I stopped attending church, my dad would text me about every few weeks and so on Sundays and say, What are you doing to honor God on this Lord’s day? And I started texting him back and saying, I thought every day was the Lord’s Day. Like we’re supposed to do something special on Sundays, right? But reality was saying, hey, let’s just make every day special and, and how we treat others and, and, and our daily practices is just as important everyday as it is on Sunday mornings.

Brandon Handley 31:56
So I mean, I’m curious. If you You know, kind of going through that separation process, if those are some of the words that you would use to share with others as to why you were leaving?

Unknown Speaker 32:10
Yeah.

Cory Walker 32:13
Most people didn’t ask quite frankly.

Cory Walker 32:17
You know, one of the reasons was, we were moving five, six hours away. So they just don’t know what we do or don’t want or what we don’t do. But the other part was for those who are closer, they grew up in the same kind of fundamentalist belief system. And there’s one particular scripture that says, Don’t forsake gathering together with other believers, as some are in the habit of doing and that that interpreted by every pastor I’ve ever heard, speak meant, make sure you’re in church on Sunday morning. And so when you just choose to say, that’s not, that’s not funny, that’s beneficial. And I don’t want that to be a regular part of my ongoing life, then people just, you know, there’s another practice that just kind of shown you it’s not necessarily intentional. I remember for years People have stopped coming to church and you try to get them to come back and let us not come back. And then you just say, Well, you know, that’s on them, I guess I’ll just minister to the ones who are still here, you know, but you just kind of gave up on them. And there’s a passage of scripture which says, if somebody departs of faith, try to try to turn them back. And then if they, you know, they still claim to be good followers of God, but refuse to do the things which are they’re supposed to be doing. They don’t have anything to do with them. And so I think a lot of Christians have been taught over the years based upon that scripture, that is somebody off the deep end, whether it’s messed up and drugs or alcohol or you know, cheating on their spouse or even just not going to church anymore, that you just kind of don’t have anything to do with them, either. Because somehow it’ll teach them a lesson, or because somehow their disobedience if you will, is going to tank, your spiritual walk. It’s just not a healthy thing. But unfortunately, that’s kind of the way it is a lot of boys.

Brandon Handley 33:54
That’s interesting, right? So, you know, Were you upset at all that nobody asked you You know that you know, get more requests?

Cory Walker 34:02
Yeah, you have a little bit of, it’s probably more grief than anger, just a little more grief, but you invested a lot into relationships, and then people just kind of, you know, part of the move, I’m sure, but that plays something into it. Because when you live six hours away from where you weren’t living, it’s just not convenient to connect in the way that you were before. And if like, oh, Cory and Lisa, his wife just moved off, you know, so Okay, well, I guess we’ll find some new friends. But you know, unfortunately, unfortunately, but I do have several. I have a band of about five brothers that good good men that I’ve known for a number of years and we all stay connected. Fact is, they’ve come down here and visited me multiple times we’ll have a rent a cabin or something and go out on the lake or, you know, sit around the bonfire, you name it, and it’s just been really encouraging time. So.

Brandon Handley 34:54
Okay, so you also mentioned being around people that are spiritually minded, right? What does that what does that mean to you?

Unknown Speaker 35:03
Huh? Yeah, it’s uh

Cory Walker 35:07
it all starts with heart to me. I mean, I’m not a big fan of doctrine, which is philosophies and ideas that we are taught that we follow as much as I am. What’s your heart? How do you? How do you perceive the universe in your case, or God, in my case, is, is wanting you to interact with others? And are you being true to that. And there’s a lot of people around here, even though there certainly would not be considered Christians, by most or even by themselves, that we’re living more of a Christ like life. So how they lived out their heart, then a lot of people that I’ve known in church over the years, because it was about checking the boxes and doing the to do lists, more so than how we treat everybody on a daily basis. So find a lot of people like that and we’re connecting with a lot of them. It’s been it’s been a journey. It’s Rio when you leave behind your paradigm and not just your city, you know, the, the place and the venue in which you were interacting with others is now gone because we don’t attend church, then it becomes really important what you do with your daily life when I’m working with my customers or my friends or working, my kids are working with their co workers or my wife’s interacting with people in the neighborhood, those things become incredibly important because they’re really the only interaction that you have. And that’s where your social life is going to grow from.

Unknown Speaker 36:30
Now I get it. So you know,

Brandon Handley 36:33
I think about Buddhism to one of the big pieces of that is is the community right so sounds to me like you know that that was the community and that was your space. What what are you replacing that with just just work? Have you been able to replace that sense of community anywhere else?

Unknown Speaker 36:55
Have

Cory Walker 36:57
we looked initially first organizations to get into They’re like, Oh, maybe we can find some nonprofit or volunteer this or that or whatever. And nothing seems to be a good fit. And it also is kind of seriously kind of pushing our organizational buttons, because when you’re part of a nonprofit organization for decades, you just learn the politics and stuff that’s behind the scenes. But what I have found Well, if you got time, I’ll give you a quick example. One of my customers just astounds me, I’m a licensed contractor now. I went to do a bathroom remodel. And the day before they, the I showed up, Dave, for I showed up, they were, they found out that his wife had breast cancer, and she was going to have to have a lump removed. And as a result, we were we were just trying to, you know, remodel her bathroom, but she just opened up and shared all this information with man. So I’m sorry, master bathroom. So she’s in there sitting on the bed, and adjacent room looking in while I’m working and just poring over heart and talking to me. And I’m like, well, she didn’t even know I was a former pastor. And I hadn’t even spoken Difficult as a Christian, but I was just listening to what she said, say and kind of just empathizing and trying to help her. And she seemed very appreciative of it. Well, then she goes in for an MRI right before her surgery to make sure that the cancer about spread and it hadn’t. But they found out that her aorta was enlarged, and she’s gonna have to open heart surgery. And so then she A week later, she goes to meet with a surgeon for open heart surgery. And he says, Well, I don’t think this is even operable. And I’d say you’ve got less than five years. And she’s like, Oh, my gosh, so she comes home and she’s just talking to me about all this stuff. And then I just opened the door for us to have conversation about what it means to be alive and what takes place after you die and how none of us really know exactly what that is. But we have to do whatever it is that helps us find peace in the moment. And then I just was able to share with her that I believe in the divine, and that I believe that good things away for us after the fact because because of his goodness, not because of ours and then just loved on her and told her I was praying for her and master if there’s anything we could do to help, and we walked her dog while she was out having surgery and you know, just trying to be a decent human being, and that seems to be more important to me than ever before, because that’s where I’m meeting people. And that’s where I’m making connection. So,

Brandon Handley 39:18
sure, sure. Sounds to me too, like, focusing on the few right, focusing on the present, focusing on the moment. And not not being concerned with like, having to have like, to being good, decent human being. Yeah, right. And does it does it need to be more, but it sounds like your community is kind of like within those that you everybody’s part of your community?

Cory Walker 39:42
Yeah, I always felt like I was felt a little resentful, in fact, because I had this quote, unquote, calling on my life through your minister and it seemed like everybody else had their regular life. And then, and that was it. And I had my regular life and the special calling, which involved me doing all these extra things to go above and beyond. It’s just like, Oh my gosh, how much do I have to give, but now I’m just like, just being a decent human being and your regular life goes a long, long way. And these people we’ve connected with three or four times a year, we’ll have big parties at our house and just invite all my customers and my wife’s friends and different people from the neighborhood over and just, you know, have a chili feed or have this or that and it’s just incredible that people will be walking around living room. So how do you know Cory and Lisa, talking to each other and ask them questions like, wow, we have either been planted here by somebody else, or we have just dropped into this neighborhood and have started to make a difference in the lives of people in our community. And word is getting around the other day. My wife posted I was doing some work on her own house and she posted a picture of me doing the work on her Facebook feed and someone that’s never met either one of us, but who is in the community and is fairly well known. So as you guys are the new power couple. We’re sure glad to have you. Yes, smile. I was like, I don’t know that. We’re Anything special, but it’s good to see that we’re actually making an impact.

Brandon Handley 41:04
That’s great. And I mean, does it feel nice that you’re kind of making this impact without having to feel this extra pressure to do so?

Cory Walker 41:11
Yeah, totally effect is another friend of mine asked the same question a couple days ago. Is it great to be pastor Corey, it’s great to be Cory and still have pastor Corey and I said absolutely candidate, just so much less pressure and, and not having to pour your resources and time and effort into an organization which may or may not be promoting the things that you believe gives you the time and resources to pour into the people that you come across on a daily basis. We were able to help a single mother who was in terrible needy situation a few weeks ago, and we had the money to do it because we weren’t giving 10% of our income to an organization every every week when we got paid, you know, and and for those who believe that that’s what they’re supposed to do. That’s great. I did it for years and it worked for me then but it no longer does. And now I now I look for opportunities to give To help and to be a decent human being to everybody around So,

Brandon Handley 42:04
right, right, I mean, not just not just to the church, right? Yeah, just one specific organization. It’s another, you know, again, you know, I’ve got a buddy who’s a Buddhist Reverend, and he talks a lot to being able to give charity with wisdom, right? And not just not just do it kind of blindly. And yeah, just kind of give away everything just because, but do it with with a sense of wisdom and a sense of knowing that, you know, what you’re giving to is, is from your heart, not just because back to your point to just check a box, right? So, I love that. So, you know, I’m just kind of chuckling to myself, but you know, you know, let’s, let’s say that, let’s say that you’re creating a church. What would that look like to you? Right? What would it be, you know, if you were to spin off, out of all these other thousands of different organizations You know, and maybe you feel like you’ve been touched in a way that maybe some other people hadn’t been? How would you do differently?

Cory Walker 43:08
Well, great question, in fact, is we’ve asked my wife and I’ve asked ourselves this question many times, because one of the things we did not want to do when we left organized Christianity was just to go create a slightly different version of it, that we thought was a little bit better. We just kind of want to set the whole thing aside and try to live out our faith on a daily basis. That being said, you know, when you get up and speak to people on a weekly basis, or maybe multiple times a week for a half your life and then you stop doing it and the largest group to speak to might be three to five people. And that would be on a rare occasion. There’s always an itch that wants to be scratched, to get up and speak to people again. I’ve toyed with potential for some motivational speaking or maybe even a little bit of stand up on occasion, a local club, one of the local clubs turns out just because I have a gift of gab and I enjoy using it but If I were to create something that looked like a church, it would probably just be more like something where we got together on a monthly basis to just swap stories about what was going on in our lives and the good things that we saw taking place. And maybe, you know, 10 or 15 minutes worth of positive, encouraging instruction, towards just being a better human being, that would be the most organized I’d ever want it to be. I’m not renting or owning a facility or you know how to take up an offering or anybody getting a salary from design or anything like that. Just Just humans who consider themselves part of the same community gathering together to recognize that there’s divine presence in our life. And when we follow it, good things happen for us and the people that were around,

Unknown Speaker 44:47
nice, all of that. So

Brandon Handley 44:50
if somebody out there is feeling this kind of divine pull to break away from a life that they’ve always known, you know, how would you How would you want What would you say to that person? How would you help them through that? Right?

Cory Walker 45:03
I’d say give me a call.

Cory Walker 45:06
Actually, my website has a place where you can connect with me if you’re gonna if you’re on that journey, because you’re going to feel alone. And if you just Google non traditional Christian, you’ll get a bunch of stuff that comes up. But none of us really dealt with how to transition out of organizational Christianity at all, was more like, you know, trendy type churches where they have smoke machines and stuff like that, you know, or rock and roll music or whatever, you know, wasn’t really more along the lines of, Hey, I don’t really want to sit in a church on Sunday mornings anymore. And it, you know, I guess, effect is I have several friends who are life coaches, and I’ve done a little bit of myself and I thought on a couple occasions, maybe down the road, what I need to do is make myself available as a spiritual coach to people who are transitioning away from traditional forms of a face into more of a daily applicational living and just Help them walk the journey as someone who’s just maybe a step or two ahead of them down the path somewhere path.

Unknown Speaker 46:05
Yeah, no, I

Brandon Handley 46:06
love that. Right. Listen, as you said earlier, we don’t know how this thing ends, right? We don’t know what’s on the other side. But what we do know is that today, if we’re living in accordance to living from our heart, if we’re doing what we feel is as good as it can be, you know, then every day you can theoretically you could be in heaven, right? Every day you can live a life that is giving and is the spiritual way. But there could be someone who doesn’t know what it means to live life as worship right. My niggas got something you were saying earlier right? live every day so it was the you know, the Lord say and again, you know, listen, I think that there’s bristles right like, you know, from for people, you say, God, they’re like, Oh, no,

Cory Walker 46:56
there goes yeah.

Cory Walker 46:58
loaded, loaded term. But for

Brandon Handley 47:00
even for me, right, I still I still toy with it mentally. You know, when I write the word God, I do little g just because I, I it’s just, it’s just the whole concept, right there’s there’s a wall in my mind with big G, right, but there’s no wall in my mind with universal or creative energies, all these other things, these are all ones that are free flowing, that mean the same thing.

Unknown Speaker 47:26
Right? To me.

Brandon Handley 47:28
And it’s easier for me to accept it right. So I think that you know, just just just as with you, like, if somebody were on this path, and they were coming out of a traditional church that would be easy for them to gravitate towards you, right? Because you’re got that experience. Whereas like, if it was somebody who’s coming onto this path that was just kind of coming onto this path. That wasn’t such a big g kind of guy, right? Then it might be somebody like me, right, where he’s like, Listen, we’re going to talk in Universal we’re going to talk all these other things, but

Cory Walker 47:56
yeah,

Brandon Handley 47:58
I love I love what you’re doing. There. That I think that that’s, you know, wonderful because they need that right. And here’s, here’s one of the things that I was saying too is is of with, with your, with the Bible with a faith with religion, it’s kind of like a framework for the space that you’ve gotten into is that you know, how, what is your What is your concept or idea that like as as it being the framework, not necessarily the whole building and structure and everything that it needs to be.

Cory Walker 48:29
Yeah, that’s a good way that’s a good way to look at it. I think it’s the skeletal structure and you put the meat in the bones on after the fact you know, it’s not the bumps and beaten in the skin on after the fact you get to build out your faith in the way that you that you can feel good about. Now, I’ve never believed spirituality was just all about feeling good. But the bottom line is, you need to be able I need to be able to live in a way that’s congruent with what I believe and if my beliefs are such that they’re preventing me from Living honestly, with my heart, then I’m just not in a very good place. And so, you know, I think religion is a good place and, and traditional forms of religion are a good place for to give structure for people who feel like they just be lost out there on their own if they didn’t have, you know, some guidance or some set of this or that, to help them down the path. And and I respect that. And one of the things that we believe over lifetime believe when we first stepped out of out of traditional Christianity was that it’s every individual’s responsibility and privilege to figure out what their faith is supposed to look like for them, instead of telling someone Well, you shouldn’t go to church, you know, I’m going to say, Hey, if you’re finding benefit in that, and I think my book reflected that in a couple ways, if you’re, if you’re finding benefit and being a part of an ongoing church, then then do so but if it’s not long, it’s no longer working for you. Don’t be afraid to step away and I just felt like that makes a lot more sense. than the one size fits all, you know, hey, let’s all jennea flex every Sunday or let’s all take communion on the first Monday, first Sunday of the month, or let’s all do this.

Cory Walker 50:10
To me, it just wasn’t it wasn’t working anymore.

Brandon Handley 50:12
Now I get it. I get it. Do you see yourself ever going back into it?

Cory Walker 50:16
Yeah, you know, my best friend. His name’s Jeremy. I think you’ve met him before. But he says. He says, Don’t you wish we could just go back to being good Methodist. Now neither one of us have been. Neither one of us have ever been Methodist. But the sentiment is Wouldn’t it be so much easier not to ask the deeper questions and to follow your heart and just do what you’re told. Just to show up once a once a month or twice a month and show some change in the offering and feel good about checking the boxes. Sure, when neither of us. Neither my wife or I really feel like we could ever take that journey back. There may be some phenomenal church out there that teaches the love of Christ and the grace of Christ without all the shoulds and this open to anybody who wants to come that we just haven’t discussed Get but certainly in our region. To my knowledge, it doesn’t exist. And know, if it does, I’ll ask, I’ll ask the divine Lord of the universe to bring it and drop it in my lap. So that all is there. And it does and I’ll be happy to walk through the door

Brandon Handley 51:15
a little bit. What um, you know, I was like trying to find out some different books or whatnot, you said you went through like 66 books as you were kind of gone through going through, you know, the, the E reading phase, what are what are some that like a really kind of revolutionized your way of thinking as it comes all this stuff?

Cory Walker 51:36
Well, you know, if you’re coming at it from a Christian standpoint, there’s couple good books, one of them’s called organic church. I can’t think of the author right now that is well known. And it just talks about some of the stuff I’ve talked about here today, about how it’s supposed to be an organism that’s supposed to grow on its own. And it’s supposed to be a living, breathing thing that’s made up of people not organ organization. The other one was called patient Christianity, it was a great book. And it talks, it traces all the doctrines that we hold dear today, back to in many cases, their pagan roots and the sense that they’re not, not of God, if you will, not biblical roots, but just traditional roots that go to different different types of belief systems all over the world. And so don’t get so hung up on whether something is biblical or not, you know, because most of what we do in our Sunday morning services isn’t from the Bible, it’s just things that are developed over 2000 years worth of religion so but you know, on the non Christian, if you will side outside of the mainstream, I really love the books like the Four Agreements and, you know, books that just, you know, I’m reading a lot of stuff. Like recently we’ve been rereading for third or fourth time then Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey. You know, just a lot of the lot of the stuff that for years in church, we were told not to read because you’re supposed to read Christian stuff, but yet every time I read the stuff that’s not Christian stuff, because by training of my upbringing, I’m seeing all the biblical truth that’s present in the non Christian stuff. Show goes goes back to that the divine wanting us to have truth bad enough, he’s willing to put it wherever he has to, in order to get it into our hands.

Brandon Handley 53:13
Right. I mean, that’s the whole, you know, cast it was a casting pearls before the swine, right? Like, I’m not saying that though, there’s always going to be this wine that doesn’t understand or appreciate the pearl. Right, versus you know, somebody else is looking for those exceptional pieces wherever they go. Yeah, that’s kind of, you know, so I’m hearing a little bit. So I’m curious there too. You know, I would hear stories about like paganism and the story of the cross in Christianity. I’m curious, did the pagan Christianity book did it talk to that at all?

Cory Walker 53:45
Well, the cross it didn’t specifically mention the cross. But we do know from historical documents that the cross was the form of capital punishment that you know, the Romans Jews and the Romans were occupying Israel at the time so Jesus would have died on a cross Because of, because that’s the way that they killed people back then. So that, that, that from what we can tell is accurate, but there’s just so many like even, you know, many of the end just things are so interwoven together and we don’t even recognize it. And I’m just going off of memory. But like even the you know, like today when we give toasts, maybe at a wedding or at a party, and someone raises their cup and gives a toast to somebody, it’s traced back to Communion within Christianity, where Jesus took the cup and said, This is my body is broken for you, as often, you know, drink this as often as you as often as you drink this, remember me. And so a lot of the things that are interwoven throughout our, throughout our culture in our society, can can come from some Christian stuff, and then a lot of the things that we have in Christianity came right out of very non Christian, what we would call pagan societal practices, just as a result of you know, having As the message of Christ spread throughout the world, it would be in and spread into different cultures than it was originally brought to. And result, different things would be adopted. And so that is a great little book called pagan Christianity. And it’s a, it’s a good read. So

Brandon Handley 55:16
thanks for sharing that. And like you’re saying, it’s really interesting to see where something starts and where it ends up. Right? How did it start? And where is it showing up in different spaces in our lives? So thank you. Thanks, man. You know, I think it’s been a lot of fun. I think I really definitely enjoyed kind of going through. For me, Pentecostal stuff was really kind of eye opening, sharing those gifts was also something to me that I wasn’t aware of. Right. So I think that there’s definitely stuff within, you know, Christianity within the scriptures that can really speak and rang true to some people are afraid to go into because of the organizational stuff because of some of the horror stories because of like, you know, you know, like, just your, they don’t want to go in and check off all these boxes, but they do. Do want, they do want to feel, quote unquote closer to God. Right.

Unknown Speaker 56:04
Yeah, totally. And and so, you know,

Brandon Handley 56:08
I think that that’s available to anyone like you’re saying, just kind of go out and seek it for yourself right and see, can you sell fine, right? Whatever. Whatever whatever you’re seeking is seeking you all that jazz. But Corey, thank you so much again for hopping on today. Where should I send somebody who’s going to come? Look for Corey Walker,

Cory Walker 56:29
probably the easiest way is to go through my website and that’s church Been there, done that calm, church, been there done that calm. And while I certainly still believe in the church, I just believe it’s who we are. A church attendance is something I no longer do. So that’s why we named a website that the web the book is available for free download there. And there’s ways to contact me through there if you’re wanting to just somebody to talk to or if you’re wanting to develop an ongoing friendship or relationship you know, that’s the joy of the internet. Now we can find people, even though we may be in the minority We can find people from all over the world that we can connect with who are thinking and feeling the same things.

Unknown Speaker 57:06
Now 100% So, let’s say you started Coreys spiritual coaching today what what Who do you feel like would be your ideal client?

Cory Walker 57:18
Um, you know, people who definitely people who grew up in the Christian faith, but who are seeking who seeks to find benefit in it and or they just can’t, they can’t live with some of the inconsistency is that they’re finding and the faith and instead of getting dumping God all together, if you will, they can find an alternative way to express their fate without having to have the religious aspect of it. That’s probably my ideal

Unknown Speaker 57:45
client. Awesome. Well, guys, if that’s you reach out to Cory.

Cory Walker 57:50
Thanks, Cory. thank thank you so much. Have a good day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Jeremy Snowden

Brandon Handley 0:00
4321 Hey there podcast land thanks for tuning in. We are taking another hit a spiritual dope and today I’ve got Jeremy snowed and joining me He is a dad, a granddad friend and men’s mentor. He finds fulfillment being a resource a community connector. He runs a men’s growth and development group Hero’s Journey men’s online discussion circle, and host a biannual man’s three days meetup. He spends his free time discovering life hacks, physical movement and mindfulness practices. Jeremy, thanks for joining me today. What’s going on? What’s up?

Jeremy Snowden 0:38
What’s up? Thanks so much for the invitation, man. Yeah,

Brandon Handley 0:41
yeah, I don’t it was like, it was kind of like, it was a no brainer. You know, it was like, you know, we we’ve crossed paths, Facebook paths so many times, right. When I spun this up, I was like, you won’t point so just you’re kind of like a brother, brother from another mother right type of thing. Cuz, like, I think we’re the same people. Right. Right. And and and the more we have these conversations, the more we kind of find that that’s true. You and I were just talking before this about a mutual, you know, mentor that we found online. Eddie Bryant, right, who’s doing who’s doing some stuff. And you mentioned I just discovered on the week before, so I was like, this is just, yeah, it’s fun. It’s fun. And it’s funny. So before we even get started, man, so before we even get started, I feel like I feel like we’re kind of like, we’re conduits for the creative energies forces in the universe, right? Yeah. And we’re put together right now on this podcast, to speak to somebody. Right? And somebody needs to hear this, and it needs to come from you. What is it?

Unknown Speaker 1:51
Man?

Jeremy Snowden 1:52
Okay, so Wow, right on the spot, did you Okay, so

I think more than anything else

For me if I was if I was looking at the person that needs to hear this you are a human being not a human doing you know there’s more to you than you know that you’re at then you’re aware of

and just fully embody yourself No

I think that would be a good

Brandon Handley 2:24
I love it. I love it man right i mean you’re you’re you’re a human being not a human doing we get so caught up. Gosh, reactivity, right all the activity although RUN RUN, RUN doo doo doo I got to be productive man. If I’m not productive, they’re gonna kick me off the team.

Jeremy Snowden 2:42
Right? The pressure and the stress? Yeah,

Brandon Handley 2:45
yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So I love it. I love it. You’re a human being.

Unknown Speaker 2:51
And I think the other thing is,

Brandon Handley 2:53
knowing yourself right? And when you get into this kind of the spiritual realm and And you’re you’re getting into all these different involve with all these different groups. Excuse me. And these conversations, the word self can take on a number of connotations, right? Come on, what do you got? So tell me what you know. So, I’ll give you an example of something that I saw this morning. And it actually had to do kind of like Maslow’s law, right? hierarchy of needs. And when you get to the top there, it’s self expression, self actualization. Ah, true. So, I mean, you know, if I asked you what that meant to you to basically that’s the pinnacle, self expression, Self Realization, what does that mean? Right?

Jeremy Snowden 3:42
Wow, that’s deep. For me, I guess it is finding experiences where I can be the observer, so that I can see myself clearly, you know, so depression in a wave of just that one the day that you just don’t want to get out of That it just feels like your blanket is concrete, you know? And you can’t explain it or anything. And so I have to, I call it father myself or, you know, work within my higher self, if you will. And almost to put my hand on my shoulder, if you will, and say, Hey, I know what you’re feeling. Yeah. It’s almost like it’s two separate people or, you know, like my tradition. It’s you know, you’re a tripartite three part being spirit soul body, you have a spirit, you know, or I’m sorry, you are spirit you live in, you know, you have a soul you live in a body, you know, and now it seems like it’s probably more complex and yet more simple. It’s just but at any point, it’s just seeing myself in those feelings, I can feel this I’m not those feelings. Right. But I you know, I can resonate with those feelings. Who’s the it does that that’s me. You know, you talk to yourself. A couple of days ago, I was like, let’s have pizza and I was like, Who’s let’s

Brandon Handley 5:06
good idea for us to go get these things together. And that’s great though I was just I was just listening to a book this morning actually. It’s called mastering your emotions and the exercises in there is is what you just talked about, right? One of those is very powerful exercise you you see you see this observer exercise actually happen a

Unknown Speaker 5:26
lot in NLP, right? I’m not

Brandon Handley 5:29
sure yet, right. So it’s the same thing you you, you You see, first of all, you’re already here right? But if you can remove yourself one or two or three times and see that situation just like you said, you know you’re in that better fathering yourself. I love that because you know, as a father, you know what that means by you. Put your hand on on your shoulder, and you’re going to walk yourself out there with comfort and care and say, Hey, Paul, we got this we got right. And we’re gonna go face this, whatever it is. Absolutely. Right. Yeah, love that the concrete blanket man that made me feel I felt it. I felt that corps right. Yeah, man. So, you know, my tradition is what what is your tradition? Because you said my in my tradition,

Jeremy Snowden 6:11
right? My historically if you will, first time I make the distinction between religion and spirituality, right. I’m not religious, I’m spiritual.

Brandon Handley 6:20
Yeah, show Yeah.

Jeremy Snowden 6:21
Right. Yeah. But at the same time, it was, you know, growing up in up drew up in a Christian environment, if you will, okay. And everything was about hierarchies, structures and pecking orders. It just life in general. You know, like, who makes the most money who’s the cutest who’s the tallest, the smartest, prettiest? Sure. Um, you know, and just that, that linear thinking like that. And so, for me, breaking out of that, I don’t know if this is the proper time to talk about that or not, but basically just I was, you know, a very Launch Bible believer in you know, born again Christian you know for quite some time and while I do admire and respect a lot of my, a lot of my time there and of course my friends and my you know who become your, your family that you choose, you know? Sure it’s I can see it now and you know having the whole dark night of the soul or nights or months you know. Right So, but in that I can see the need for that as a part of part of my life. So that was my background. Sure.

Brandon Handley 7:31
Yeah. It’s funny you say that right? Like I’m I’m not religious, but I am spiritual and I think that a lot of people get that confused. I don’t have a religion. Yeah. But I am spiritual right because I think that you know, you have a religion you’re not you are not religious you have it right. Like, that’s your background and your your kind of upbringing and, and, and, you know, the path that you follow, and it’s funny that you bring up you know, we we have Eddie Bryan and In common a couple weeks ago like i said i was first I listened to him but you know there’s some he talks about Vedanta and Hinduism right and he talks about all the different paths of Hinduism and right in the end he does it sooner or later you just got to bet on one line later just got it you got it you got a bet on one Yeah. Oh it because otherwise you’re just always kind of popping around Yeah. And it It’s funny how I landed on the just pick one theory or idea and I got that through the science of getting rich Wallace D wattles. Right I’ve never read that book. I mean, it’s it’s my all time it’s in my top five man it’s such a great book. But it’s like just follow just read this one book and don’t read any don’t pay attention to anything else for like until you This is part of your soul,

Unknown Speaker 8:54
bro.

Brandon Handley 8:56
I’m so sorry to dive down in that right so okay. So you’re running the men’s group. Let’s give a little more background journey man like, I mean, let’s let’s do this first, I always like to talk about the front end of it, you know, what is it you’re doing? Tell us about? Tell us about your tell us about the men’s group, right? The hero’s journey, men’s online discussion circle, right? Like, how did that get started? And what’s going on?

Jeremy Snowden 9:21
Yeah, so almost two years, well,

longer than two years ago, I connected with some guys and some Facebook groups. And I was just blown away to see what the same questions over and over and over again. You know, my wife cheated on me, you know, or my wife left me or my girlfriend, you know, yada, yada. Or we can’t give a lot we can never, you know, come to a conclusion on anything or whatever. Right? And so I figured, you know, I’m throwing my opinion in this whole thing, just to see what happens to kind of see where I’m at with my peers. You know, where are we at? You guys don’t know me from Adam. I don’t know you from Adam. And you. It’s almost like my friend of mine, Andy. You might No to he and he’s just he just trolls your stuff because he thinks you’re cool. You know? We can’t is it silly?

Brandon Handley 10:07
Yeah, yes. No, he’s funny though. So he doesn’t get a choice. Great troll. Yeah.

Jeremy Snowden 10:12
And he’s like, and he’s sort of my, my spiritual project, you know, to get him to start walking along that

Brandon Handley 10:20
path. Don’t go to the dark side.

Jeremy Snowden 10:22
Right and he’s he’s doing everything he can to, you know, push, push it up, push me off it but Anyway, I digress. But he says, You know, I said something about, you know, just try not to read the comments right about now with everything heated up. You read people’s comments, and you’re just like, oh, but he retorted and said that it’s all about the comments. And really, that’s that’s that’s community right there. Yeah, you can actually trace your community within those comments. You know, CS Lewis said it this way, and I’ll get off my soapbox. He said, I mean,

Brandon Handley 10:55
this is immunity. That’s exactly what this is the soapbox, bro. That’s why we’re here. All right. All right.

Jeremy Snowden 11:02
community doesn’t happen until someone else says YouTube. Mm hmm. You know, and so I created an online community of people that like, we have the same kind of challenges, you know, a lot of them are still married or, or, you know, some art, you know, and the thing that we do is we use the book as an excuse a friend of mine, Stan, you can you might know him as well. Stan, Michael, he, he wants to talk to me about the law of the third’s, it’s very similar to this mode to Brandon is like, you know, I have this light ring. I don’t know if you have a light rain, but I kind of see that as my vortex. You know, I mean, like, it’s, it’s almost like, if we were to practice you know, like all of the different magical traditions, if you will, where you could look through water and see spirit on the other side. That’s what we’re

Brandon Handley 11:56
doing. You know, we’re ending the evil stepmother and Mirror mirror on the wall. fairest of them all right. I mean, come on somebody that stops everywhere, right? Like, here’s the thing, like, here’s the thing is what’s so great about like this space is like, once you realize you tripped over into it, you’re like, Oh, it’s everywhere. Everybody’s been trying to tell me my entire life.

Jeremy Snowden 12:16
Come on. Right? Right on your face, right?

Brandon Handley 12:20
Mm hmm. I mean, we’ll cliches and you know, stuff. Your parents told you that you said, Nah, shut up. Stop. You’re crazy. Don’t talk to my friends. Right? It’s everywhere. I was I was on the plane, coming back from Denver. And I was watching the Madeline L’Engle movie with Oprah in it. A stitch in time, A Wrinkle in Time, Wrinkle in Time, man. And it was everything you and I are about and I was like, I was taking notes like furious. I was like, oh, brah Oh, Oprah, not again, more Oprah right um, Mirror mirror on the wall. Right, just like yeah, that’s the vortex that’s looking looking, looking looking. piercing the veil, right?

Jeremy Snowden 13:06
Yes. I’m

Brandon Handley 13:09
with you. Yeah, tell me more. So Hero’s Journey hero’s journey. Tell us all Batman.

Jeremy Snowden 13:14
So it’s very similar, right? You could see these different themes in everybody’s lives. We’re all living the same life.

Brandon Handley 13:21
Suddenly, let’s talk about the things right, let’s talk about let’s talk about the hero’s journey. Because if you’re not familiar with it, who’s it come from?

Jeremy Snowden 13:31
Joseph Campbell, is a mythologist very wise man who did research to be able to see these common themes and all stories Star Wars, right? Um,

Brandon Handley 13:45
gosh, went nuts. Oh, so if is he recently like that went went went when was he? You know, I do know some history on him. But I you know, I’m not this is not a test. But I want I want I want people to hear from you. I was like,

Unknown Speaker 14:00
No, kind of monopoly,

Jeremy Snowden 14:02
probably circa and I can look it up too.

But probably circa 1950s around that time, I guess

Brandon Handley 14:09
so he predates he predates Star Wars and all that

Jeremy Snowden 14:13
stuff, right? For sure. For sure. And yeah, just pulling him up here just as a nerd

Brandon Handley 14:18
with rain. Sure, man. So, before,

Jeremy Snowden 14:21
right so yeah, he was born. Right so

1904 so in died 1987 So, yeah, he was an inspiration to Steve Lucas. Is that right? I’m not a big Star Wars fan but Lucas. Lucas right, George There it goes. I think he’s towards. I’m showing my own coolness right now to some of your audience. Yeah, but anyway, um, he just really, you know, well, it says he was influenced, for instance by Nisha Christian Judy Krishnamurti. Carl Jung. I mean, just Schopenhauer. I mean, like he basically canonized The concept of you know that the departure, the initiation of the hero, and the return, you know, and with each and there’s got subsections and all that you could read on it, of course online. But it’s just that we have the same story except I think in my mind’s eye, I’m thinking what you talked about Maslow’s hierarchy of needs kind of the same thing. You know, I’m saying there’s, there’s levels to this shit.

Brandon Handley 15:25
Right, right, right, though. Absolutely.

Jeremy Snowden 15:27
And unfortunately, we talked about it earlier, maybe some people this round just don’t want to get it.

Brandon Handley 15:32
Well, there’s a there’s a section in the story, right is some people reject the hero’s call, right? Because the beginning there, right? is is is okay. And and here’s, you know, if you want my take on it, which you’re not asking for, but I’ll give it to you. Ain’t on me. Right. So we’ve got the hero’s journey. Then there’s, there’s the call of the hero, right? That’s when you’re when you and I are in this journey, we felt something I mean, so overwhelming that if you didn’t do it, something inside you died. Yeah. Right if you don’t and that’s so that’s the that’s the hero’s call, right? The hero’s call is, is there’s something

Unknown Speaker 16:17
within me that if I don’t share it,

Brandon Handley 16:21
if I don’t help to give this away

Unknown Speaker 16:24
within my lifetime I may as well stop now. Right? Yeah.

Brandon Handley 16:29
So you feel that and then you have a couple opportunities to say Nah, fuck that I’m gonna go have a beer. Right? Right and so you can sub you can sub do that in a number of ways. And and I’m not sure if you ever watched the series on Netflix it’s called the umbrella factory. And and what I realized by watching the umbrella factory was there’s one girl on there I’m not not to give away the whole plot, but like she was subdued her entire life from her innate superpowers. By medication, right Though, you know, to what where I’m getting there is is like a religion, ad. You know, people who my grandmother was diagnosed as schizophrenic now, we didn’t have like we weren’t super close, but the question begs to be answered. What’s your medium? Yeah, right. Right. And and there wasn’t, there wasn’t the space in the place, then that we’ve got now available to allow for that. Yeah, to explore that, which is I love where we are now. So, to me, the hero’s call is just that right? There is something within you, right? And if you if you don’t answer that, you’ve got to suppress it. And that’s when you start to kind of each time because it’s going to be it’s going to come more than once. It’s gonna keep coming right there every, every moment in your life is kind of an opportunity for that hero’s call, right? Yeah. And if you don’t answer that You’re gonna wither away and die. Yeah. Yeah, that’s my take on it.

Jeremy Snowden 18:04
What do I think that’s wonderful man, that’s, that’s really good. I love this volley. Plain and simple is because that’s how I grow. You know, for the longest I looked around to people that were in suits on Sunday morning, and it’s like, you guys can’t bring the fire here What’s going on? You know, and I was like, there’s got to be more. And it’s not that they weren’t good people. It’s just that sometimes when we put constraints on our, our faith or our religion, whatever it is, right, it’s, it’s we kind of like it’s like, I used to lead worship, you know, so and I love worship music. But it was like, only part of the dance and when I when I when I stepped down from that, if you will, and began to sit down on my back porch, right, and, you know, dance in front of the moon. Nobody else is around. It’s just me and God. So everything outside of my body is dancing with me. It felt more authentic. Then, you know, playing and although I still play music I still love. I still love worship music but it seemed that I was, you know, we could we following a rigid tradition didn’t allow me or spirit for me to be able to just blossom it just kept me in this kind of in a confined space so sure, sure kind

Brandon Handley 19:21
of like kind of like I mean, if you think about a tangle of roots and in a confined space in a box, right, like I mean, there’s just

Unknown Speaker 19:29
nowhere to go.

Brandon Handley 19:30
Yeah, okay. Well, I mean, it’s fair, but I’m just curious too, because all right, look, you’ve got this group you’re doing you’re and you’re and you’re walking them through, like the hero’s journey, right? So I stopped everybody here for a second at, you know, rejecting the call. So what happens when you answered a call is you know, take me there. Right?

Jeremy Snowden 19:48
Well, I mean, first off, and I know this different for everybody. I mean, number one is when i don’t know i don’t get probably the same thing. Granted, it’s like even the cashier will start telling me about it. Marriage, you know, I’m saying and it’s so it’s like you know, I gotta also safeguard my energy at the same time but it’s like working with guys that are like somes kind of like a little off and I need some just help. What they really need is just somebody to walk with them that second phase right, which is the initiation right percent, right. So it’s, it’s and it’s it’s Simba or I’m sorry. It’s symbols friends. Timonium, Puma. Yeah. Cool.

Brandon Handley 20:30
Right. So now saying that the other day I don’t even care. No.

Jeremy Snowden 20:34
Yeah. And then you have her freaky, right, the monkey that shows the bigger picture, if you will, right. And then the mentor Right, so the mystic, mystical mentor. There you go. And that’s where I mean again, that the hero’s journey arc works Yoda all stories, right. There you go. Right. Go. So walking with them is it for me at least it’s as much as just for saying I see you. Yeah, I see you. And he’s like, looking at you now. Right? You’ve done it.

Unknown Speaker 21:06
I’ll tell you

Brandon Handley 21:08
that, that that saves me. when when when, you know, when that happened to me, I was like something was a little off. And I had to reach out to, you know, three, three people, three different people. And I was like,

Unknown Speaker 21:21
I don’t know what’s going on. Yeah.

Brandon Handley 21:24
I’m not losing my shit, but I’m not quite right. I just thought I’d let you guys know. Right? And at same time also reached out to a Buddhist Reverend friend, right? I said, Hey, here’s what I’m feeling. And he goes, you’re cool. I was like, working with them. Right. But to your point, this is a little over three years ago. The I had the exact same feeling of, hey, look, I want to be the greeter. Right? Kind of like a scarecrow in The Wizard of Oz.

Unknown Speaker 21:58
Right. Yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 22:00
We’re gonna cross paths you’re gonna cross paths or paths are gonna interweave. You’re on the way to Emerald City. I’m sure I’ll walk along with you for a while.

Jeremy Snowden 22:08
We’re off to see the wizard. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah,

Brandon Handley 22:11
yeah, so exactly the same. Yeah. Tell me more.

Jeremy Snowden 22:14
Yeah. So a lot of the times, it’s, it’s a matter to, I mean, it’s just us watching them as kids, we had invisible friends. Right. And then we’re told, well, that’s stupid, you know, but I think that they serve whether they were real, you know, if you can, if you if you accept, you know, spirits or demons or whatever, if you go along that track are whether they are just an aspect or element of our own spirit or mind. You know, however you see it, they serve a purpose, you know, and one of those is to, to watch, like, you know, again, is my tradition. It’s like, there are such things, it’s watchers, right? Have you noticed a lot of paintings that people do when they’re shrooms are a plant medicine. There’s a lot of eyes around the eyes have it? Sure. So, you know, sometimes people just need you to be their spotter, you know, as they’re going through that stuff. You don’t need to have.

Brandon Handley 23:15
Yeah, you listen, you Listen, don’t trip by yourself on the first time, right? Like everybody knows that. I’m just saying, right? Like, it’s, it’s, it’s very similar though, right? Like, you know, you want to be in a safe place and especially when you’re in a vulnerable condition such as an awakening or such as like, you know, especially look men are just as vulnerable as anybody else. I I believe, more so because if they’re going through the, you know, the call to hero, right. And they don’t know where to turn. Most of us haven’t been prepared for this. Yes. Right or don’t recognize, right don’t recognize that they’ve been prepared for now because I’ll I would also say that due to the Your religion, you were able to put things into some kind of framework. You’re like, you know what, holy shit. there’s a there’s a story in the Bible that lines up to the scene that I’m going through right now, what was the outcome? And you could you can say in your mind, right, this was the outcome. What does that outcome really mean, though? Because that outcome no longer is, is this kind of this story, right? No, this is no longer like, you know, you know, the walls of Jericho, just falling down what, you know, what was that story? If I could put that into modern language, right, I circled it, you know, XYZ times. And, you know, is that a story of patience and perseverance of you know, and that’s what this really meant, right? And that’s what I’m experiencing. Sure. Is, did you have that? You know, is that how you kind of translated your, is that what made it easier for you or was it is it a journey that kind of like really set the tone for you?

Jeremy Snowden 24:56
Right, right. Well, it was, I guess, It was a mixture of both. So as you were sharing, I was like, dude, I’m I’m letting him go, because this is really this is solid meat here. This is about where I’m at. So it came to a point where and I won’t go into that on the just because for time sake, but, you know, I was going through my dark night of the soul if you will season right. And I just realized I need to zoom up a little further and not just assume that text, no offense to anybody else, any text. Okay, so across the board for me, if it does not resonate with my heart, I just can’t receive it. Right. Right. So if I can apply it because I think it’s wholesome, right? I mean, I All scripture is given for admiration and for admonition and examples for us and got out and I believe that they’re good. They’re good stories. Some of them don’t apply the way that I was told they applied. And so I have to, you know, observe them as the self Right, yeah. As it’s just like, you know, looking at your kids candy, I hate to, you know, make the word candy, you know, I’m saying but it’s like, you know, when you’re at Halloween, you’re just checking get your, you know, you get your fill of Reese’s Pieces that

Brandon Handley 26:14
you find those passwords don’t need all those candy.

Jeremy Snowden 26:18
But, you know, I had to I had to scrutinize each thoughts, you know, of any any text. So that’s why I’m listening to, you know, Edwin Bryant right now. And, you know, the yoga sutras of Patanjali. It’s because there are words there. They’re, what three 5000 years old. And he is explaining them and I even have to scrutinize him for myself for my own personal self right now. Not out loud, right? I’m

Brandon Handley 26:48
good.

Jeremy Snowden 26:49
All right, all the greats I don’t I just, I’ve come here on the same dispensation and it’s my responsibility to unpack it. You know, there’s a difference. I put it this way. There’s a difference. belief and faith, right?

And it’s like, yeah, was that media?

Yeah. So like faith is all scripture calls faith substance. Right? It’s a substance. Okay? Right. Whereas belief seems to me to be just an ideology, you know, and it’s like, sometimes we mistake I have in the past mistakes as interchangeable. But then when my ideology falls apart, that’s when your faith has to come alive. So that’s what happened. Okay, so when, when that happened, because of the dark night of the soul, right, I decided to investigate and search things to see if they’re actually what they really are for, for my own selves.

Brandon Handley 27:43
And describe, like dark night, a soul a little bit. So for somebody that, you know, that feels like they’ve been through it, or you know, or what does it mean to you because I think that that has a different meaning to people to

Unknown Speaker 27:55
write.

Jeremy Snowden 27:58
I think it’s part of this The Hero’s Journey story arc, if you will, in the dragons, the the bankruptcy, the divorce the, you know, the difference stimuluses that caused the response in you? Is it parallelisation? Like, I’ve been there, like, you know, where you’re just paralyzed, you don’t know what to do. It was Wednesday, like, a day ago, and now it’s, you know, Sunday morning or whatever, you know, you just kind of lose track of everything. It’s best. That’s my own personal experience. I don’t really cry a lot. It’s not.

Brandon Handley 28:31
I mean, is it like a depression point? Is it a focal point? Do you have to kind of hit?

Jeremy Snowden 28:38
Okay, so, very similar to what you said. It’s like, Is there a diagnosis for it? That is actually right. Or do we just what is what we call depression? Right? Yeah.

Is it? Is that

Unknown Speaker 28:54
the call? Sure you

Jeremy Snowden 28:57
believe so. You know, think it’s thick. Right, and they have to withdraw themselves and and heal themselves or not you know and so you know I kind of think that ladder it’s yeah I think you’re right my mom actually was kids phrenic and we her and I lived with her demons you know as her behavior is powerful

Brandon Handley 29:21
I mean how do you look at that now?

Jeremy Snowden 29:25
Yeah so i i i don’t know in terms of we’ve I guess my sisters and I’ve we’ve we’ve had that those conversations is a demon is a devils that are like literal doubles. Is it just the serotonin synaptic gaps and durose transmitters that blah blah, you know, misfire Listen, listen to I mean, there’s always there’s always a science psychology about it, right? Like I’m right. And that’s, that’s frustrating, right? Because you can science away just about anything you want. Right?

Brandon Handley 29:56
Let’s talk about it from let’s talk about it from just your You know, your own life experience perception, your own human words? Know what’s out. You know, if you’re looking at that right now, like I said about my grandmother does that, you know, all right, well, Was she a medium? Was there something was she in contact when you got plenty of people that say I talk to angels, you know, is there something trying to communicate through her and it was a matter of if she had had the right teacher or teaching. It could have been just tremendous power that could have brought good into the world.

Unknown Speaker 30:31
Sure.

Jeremy Snowden 30:33
Isn’t that crazy, too? And could it be I mean, and rest are soul. It could it be that she denied the call?

Brandon Handley 30:42
Don’t so that’s the thing, right? If you don’t, if you’re not,

Unknown Speaker 30:46
so, for me, a lot of this is already like my first language.

Brandon Handley 30:54
I was raised this way like my mother was I was born out in San Francisco. My mom was like, I mean I picked up the exact same eaching book. She got like, I’m stupid, retarded. Like, I mean, everything she ever said is like, I’m like, Oh my gosh, she was right. Right. and and, and and like, I mean, yeah, you know, I brought up Alan Watts with her and she’s like, Oh yeah, I remember seeing him in San Francisco, Alan. Know. And so, so when I experienced all this stuff, I kind of had a background in it right. I was like,

Jeremy Snowden 31:29
nice. It was almost like I’m

Brandon Handley 31:34
falling into like, down comforters. Wow, you were just like beautiful gowns. You know, like, wow, I was like, Man, this is a great place to be. Yeah. How can I explain to everybody else where I’m at, right like, I mean, and and do it in a way and that’s part about this podcast, right? How can you know a big part of it’s okay, great. It’s cool. You feel that way, but How can you apply that in? Yeah, practicality, right? And so, so you’re doing that in your group, right? you’re grabbing these men. And you’re saying, All right, we’re cool here. This is a safe space. Here’s what you’re going through, and you’re using the hero’s journey to walk them along the journey. Right?

Jeremy Snowden 32:19
So through the challenges of everyday life through divorce or whatever. And also like, like, in my case, for instance, which in the hero’s journey Ark, my dragon was hell. I mean, Holy moly, right. I mean, like, if I’m wrong, I can get a, you know, you know, don’t collect $200 go directly to hell, you know, find stamped and it’s your own. It’s your own damn fault, Jeremy, because I’m now seeking things or allowing things or understanding things that are contrary to my upbringing, if you will. So that was my that was that was that I was just so afraid. You know what What people are gonna think, you know, how people are gonna act toward me, now that I’m able to hold space for a wizard, if I wanted to, you know, I’m saying, you know, or somebody else, it’s all welcome here.

Brandon Handley 33:11
Sorry. I’m sure the reference behind that. I don’t even know, man, I’m just you know, let’s just like it’s just like, hey, like, you know, all are welcome. Nobody’s kind of kept out. Right. And so that’s kind of what you were you’re talking about. Right?

Jeremy Snowden 33:25
Right. But it was because I hit that firewall and push through it, you know, and what if I can give? Can I give a brief example, dude? Yeah, absolutely. Please do. So a couple of years ago, I did plant medicine over at a Native American church. Right. Okay. And I was like, for sure. This is the thing that sends you to hell

Brandon Handley 33:45
right here, for sure. Was that the first time you’ve ever done plant medicine? Yes. Yeah. Okay. What is plant medicine?

Jeremy Snowden 33:53
Well, I guess.

I think I guess that’s not exactly true, but From a vantage point of hallucinogenic as a medicinal

Brandon Handley 34:04
right for medicinal purposes well yeah as originally intended

Jeremy Snowden 34:09
one could argue that marijuana is plant medicine. Sure. Absolutely. Talking about that about and I westca no it’s the it’s the South American route that is extracted created into a tea you drink it shit yourself, etc etc.

Brandon Handley 34:24
There’s nowhere to go a little declare. Gives you as

Jeremy Snowden 34:29
many Doritos as

you want. You’re like, absolutely

Brandon Handley 34:35
good exchange.

Jeremy Snowden 34:36
So, you know, in my mind’s eye, I was like, I mean, I changed my will before I went in you know, I mean, it was I was thinking this I prepared with intentions, etc. about it. I meditated and prayed on it, and then I, you know, I went in, put your money down. That’s where it’s at, right everywhere. So I’m in of course, I won’t go into the experience right now, but The thing is, is that things that I seen made sense to me. Yeah. It makes sense to me in a way that maybe the things that I’ve read didn’t make sense to me. Sure. I didn’t change my religion, or if you will, so much as it it really helped me to open my spirit, if you will. Everybody should do it, because it was a trip and a half and it was a heavy deal,

Brandon Handley 35:24
you know, about no doubt. Well, but I mean, look, I it’s kind of like, um, it’s kind of like the the walls are already weakened. And that just, you know, that just

Unknown Speaker 35:37
positive in a damn

Jeremy Snowden 35:39
right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, it didn’t make me better. It didn’t make me a better father or husband or getting married or anything. It just changed you. Exactly. I mean, let’s just, even if you look at it from a purely scientific standpoint, you know, where it was the who’s hallucinogenic. It’s, you know, It was legal the way that I obtained it the whole nine yards. So I’m pretty certain that but it’s, you know, I’m just

Brandon Handley 36:06
waiting for the address at the end of the show.

Jeremy Snowden 36:14
Well, but the thing that if you just look at it from a scientific point of view, where it’s just a hallucinogenic that, you know, responded to your nervous system, creating a sense of euphoria and blah, blah, blah, colors, right, good shit. It was right. Nonetheless, it wasn’t really about the experience, right? Because it really is about the outcome. Really, right. Yeah. I, this experience is a great, everybody’s got it. Right. You know,

Brandon Handley 36:44
you take it, I mean, look at me, it’s, it’s, it’s, you know, everybody’s got experiences, right? It’s, it’s not that you don’t have the experiences How do you translate those experiences? And that’s, that’s really the outcome, like so it’s it’s every, you know, You know, my wife has never done any hardcore drugs, or drugs. I don’t think she’s ever smoked a weed or maybe she took a hit, but like, she never was like, hey, let’s sit around all afternoon and like smoke his bowl, like, Oh my God just filled the bottled water, right? Like she never hung out did all that, but like, um, you know, she’ll have some drinks and whatever. But so she’s had experiences that she’s had. And I’ve had, you know, plenty of experiences similar to one I just outlined and much rougher and tougher. And she looks at my life like, wow, you went through some shit. I’m like, it’s not. Everybody’s gone through some shit. It’s somebody translate that how do you? How do you take your stories, and empower yourself? Because what we’ve done though, historically, and I think this is part of what you’re teaching your men and working with your men is take these stories and your experiences, and empower yourself. And that’s kind of the pinnacle of the hero’s journey is that my writers? Tell me more. I’m talking way too much. Yes,

Jeremy Snowden 37:56
this is the collaborate. I think it’s great but the return That’s the final third of the hero’s journey the return when, you know King off, Arthur is able to pull the sword from the stone where Simba grabs the courage to be able to, you know, go and get his bride and defeat his uncle and circle and lie, you know. So. So it’s it’s again, it’s it’s, it’s the, it’s the return and for me, it’s like well, we started at the, you know the departure like with some some of my guys, we started the departure, and I don’t determine that for you. Like, I’m very careful not to try to dictate what I see God as for someone else. Yeah, you can’t. Right. Right, right. Yeah. That’s right.

Brandon Handley 38:42
So that’s what that’s what it is frustrating. Um, and that’s the product it’s frustrating but it’s also the problem because you Yeah, it’s uh, if you say you know, God, then you don’t know God type thing, right? Like because

Unknown Speaker 38:58
you can’t, you can’t

Brandon Handley 39:00
Put that into words. If you’ve gotten that kind of the first place that this kind of dawned on me experiences can’t be translated they must be experienced was a de five rings book. If you’ve ever read that, right? Have you ever read that? That Samurai? Oh, yeah. And I was just beginning Jiu Jitsu at the same time, but like he would be talking about like, you know, kind of these different sword moves and swords, spots and spaces. And he can tell you how to do the moves, you can watch how to do the moves, but it’s not until not only do you go try to do the moves, when you nail the move, and you get it right, then you know, you’ve just executed it correctly, right? You’re like, wow, you know, because it’ll be just a muscle here or muscle here and change and adjustment angle here or there. That makes it all work, right. So minor, minor adjustments, but when you nail it, you’ve experienced it. And that’s all you can tell somebody like you’ll know when you get it. Right, you’ll know when you write like algebra and fractions.

Jeremy Snowden 40:05
Yeah. Oh, and you’re like, bingo. Yeah, I got you best nine years of my life.

Brandon Handley 40:16
So, so you’re running this group, you’ve been running this group for a while now. Right? And and you’re, you’re ramping up. You want to expand my right or wrong. For sure. Yeah. Let’s talk about that. Tell me what’s up. Yeah.

Jeremy Snowden 40:31
So because of my experience of divorce seven years, and just when I was able to kind of release that yoke of what my reality was, or when I created as far as my story, and then realize I used to be, I used to be a husband and a father, then it’d become, you know, an ex husband. I changed roles right. And then the kids stopped calling me because they were certainly going off to high you know, High School in college. So they respect Less than less. And it’s like so now I’m not even a dad. And so it you know, although I was technically Of course, you know, when they needed something specially, but and and it’s just part of their journey they’re they’re doing what they need to do as well. But it really caused me to be up to to look inside to make it happen. And so that’s sort of what I’m approaching other guys that are just having those questions right now. You know so

Brandon Handley 41:26
the question is, what is what are some of the trigger questions you hear and you’re like, you’re like, you’re like I know it. I know you need me. Right, I can help you. What are those questions?

Jeremy Snowden 41:35
Well, the key the key word that I listened for should back in my Bible days, Hey, have you been reading your Bible? Not as much as I should? Sure. Yeah. Are you exercising not as much as I should? It’s like, why don’t you design a life for yourself when you fully embody yourself? And so you know, whenever I hear those kind of things like should how things are supposed to To be or ought to, if they’re open if people are open to it, and again, it’s a matter of audience, right? I don’t know who, who needs me. I’m, I’m just opening myself to do. I’m doing a 21 day kind of a challenge. It’s really not about the 21 days. It’s not about doing activities, although it is it’s just about someone watching you through your journey as you’re developing. So those dark days where you don’t want to get up and you get a text from me that says, you’re making your bed right and you’re doing your five push ups. Put a thumbs up when that’s done, holler to you later. Peace, right? It’ll put a smile on your face. It’ll make you it’ll make you do it even though you don’t want to do it. It’s valid. Right? It’s just it’s it’s billion dollar that they already have. Sure.

Brandon Handley 42:44
Yeah. That hasn’t been on hasn’t been hasn’t been bolstered. Right. It hasn’t been supported. It hasn’t been encouraged,

Jeremy Snowden 42:52
right? Um

Brandon Handley 42:55
I would you know, I would stop were we talking about it. I’m Sure you

Unknown Speaker 43:00
flow, the book flow, you bought a book

Brandon Handley 43:03
is it in his book where he talks about and I think it is in his book where he talks about like, you know, some of the older cultures like in China and Oriental cultures, they cultivated the sense of being, right. They cultivated, they were cultivated people. And we get the sense of and you know, when we say, oh, that person’s cultivated, we this we think aristocratic, we think money, wealth, and all these other things, but know, what he’s talking about is they’ve cultivated that inner sense of being right. They’ve cultivated that, you know, stoicism and applied it and it’s internalized, right. That’s, that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s what they’ve done. And that’s what we haven’t done. Right. So that in a Western culture, right, you know, and, and, and I’ll throw this other one at you too, because I keep kicking it around. You know, adulting is hard, but you know what, the full word is adulterated. We’ve been adulterated and changed, right? There’s this change and transition. So adulting being adulterated. When we go through this metamorphosis. It’s a it is a challenge. And if you don’t have people like yourself, myself, I’m there to catch you as you come in or greet you, right? I mean, the officer into the church is there to greet you to welcome you like that. Right? It’s You’re welcome here, come into this place where you’re welcome. And and and be prepared to hear some stories that if you’re, they’re no longer pearls before swine, right, that they’re no longer pearls before swine, like, these are all the stories that are now before you that after you cross this threshold of understanding, you get now you’re like, Ah, yeah, because you can’t you I think we’re talking a little bit about this earlier. It’s like you can’t go to people who haven’t already had the experience. Tell them about the experience, and have them ready to accept it because It sounds unreal.

Unknown Speaker 45:02
That’s right. Right. But the beauty is

Brandon Handley 45:08
we’ve got, you know, Vedanta Hinduism, all the stories from you know, the the writing to your pata shots. But I mean even, you know, the the cuneiform Egypt lives this, these are not and this is this is what you’re talking about though these are not new feelings. These are not new questions. These questions have all been answered before. Yeah. But they’ve been answered by generations before us who had other experiences to reference around them. Right. And we’ve got to do that now. We’ve got to retranslate those stories into a language that somebody else can understand.

Jeremy Snowden 45:46
And more or less one that resonates with our just tacking on for me, it’s like, yeah, yeah, right. It’s not something that I’m parroting anymore and not that you’re living it.

Brandon Handley 45:56
You’re living, you’re living it, you’ve embodied it. It is now internalized and when you express yourself, self expression, your inner self. Right? That’s what’s coming out. It’s like the Wayne Dyer thing, right? You know, if you put nothing if you’re an orange, essentially right, the only thing it’s going to come out of you is orange juice because all you’ve been putting in you is pouring right? I mean for you, all you’ve been putting into yourself is like this love, right? I’ve been putting into yourself Is this just the story and your understanding and you’ve been working on yourself? You’ve been cultivating yourself so that you can

Unknown Speaker 46:31
share so that you can get Yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Snowden 46:34
You know, I find that a lot of guys and again, I work in more in the manned space than I you know, I’ve got of course you know, lots of Lady for fret friends that are women but I pretty much in the man’s face in terms of self development. Um, and maybe that’s just more I’m just that’s how I’m wired. You know, I there’s a lot of common, there’s more commonality, so for sure, but you find that a lot of guys have been motivated and burdened by shame. Okay, it’s, it was the, it was the tool that drew the you know that trival drove him to school, it was the tool that kept him in line. It’s the and then all of a sudden, you know, and that’s where I’m thinking, Man, if people are feeling sensing that on the regular, something’s not right, your, your, your, your heart is as a as a and this is just my experience, if your heart is just pushes that way, it’s like it feels it and it pushes it away. And so sometimes people use excessive alcohol or drugs or whatever, you know, to, or eating or whatever to be able to mask that. But that’s just, that’s just the symptoms, you’re just cutting leaves off the, you know, the, the weed or whatever, you know, but it’s going to continue to grow. It’s just going to be there until you find a way to be able to not even address it, but address yourself. It’s okay. You know, it’s alright, man, everybody makes mistake, I really do it in my there. And just going through that process of not, you know, that self talk process to bring really an impact besides the story, the stories and outside thing, which some of it was true, some of it happened, a lot of it didn’t. And you replayed it, you know, 90,000 times every day over the last 20 years or whatever. So I think that’s why people need to have other people it’s not just by my coaching, you know, video, you know, whatever’s and you will be a millionaire too. It’s, hey, so was it hard brushing your teeth this morning, man. You know, you look tired, like doing a video. You know, like how when you do video with people.

Brandon Handley 48:49
So, you know when I chatted with a doctor who was helping men Go through depression, right? She was actually working on, you know, men who are suicidal, right? Trying to get them help, right because her brother had had done this himself. And so she made that kind of her life’s work

Unknown Speaker 49:15
column

Unknown Speaker 49:22
for three, to one more back.

Brandon Handley 49:27
What are some, like, you know, applications of kind of what we’re talking about there, right? Because it sounds to me a little bit like, you know, using the observer as a tool, right? That’s what it was right? So she would she would say, hey, with men, right? They want to try it first. They want to try to do it on their own first and so she would offer them a toolbox. Do you offer your guys like a toolbox? Beautiful.

Jeremy Snowden 49:49
I think that the the book study in itself is that toolbox like resource, and it’s really not me. It’s the other guys I mean, we get on a zoom call. We talked about You know, like, right now we’re doing Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. Right? Great ground, the great book, right? Yeah, nothing wrong with that. And we’re just going through it and what we’re doing, we’re talking the language to each other. So I use that as a toolbox. I mean, plain simple is people guys always say it’s so hard to be able to be a part of a men’s group. Well, the men’s group is, you know, your bowling league, if it’s the right guys, you know, or, you know, the people that you you know, whatever, you know, hike with or cycle with, that can be a part of your men’s group. So it doesn’t have to be an officially sanctioned thing. So that’s my that would be my tool, my toolbox and you know, then I work on work with people one on one, you know, we do the, the hero’s journey men’s circle, just that’s, that’s what I do. That’s what I do for my life, not for a living. So I’m charging for I probably never will. It’s just a way to be able to have these conversations because if you think about it, in Spanish, everybody’s taking Spanish, one Spanish To write, and none of us can even order from the taco truck. You know, I’m saying, why is that? Well, because we didn’t get a chance to practice it. Right? So when you’re reading a book, a really good book, and then you’re talking to somebody about it, like what you and I just did, you know, in the hero’s journey, you broke it down. I was like, amen. Amen. I was like, Wow, dude. So, you know, and then she’s talking about it. What does it do? It solidifies my ideas. It helps you to contrast them against yours. Sure, not for the not for the cause of debate. You’re a stranger you’re hearing you know, Australia or whatever. I know you’re not but you know, I’m saying

Brandon Handley 51:35
but actually, I heard there’s a lot of spiders there the other day and we don’t want to be in Australia. So

Unknown Speaker 51:40
Crikey there goes that cranky.

Brandon Handley 51:42
But I was like, they all said it with kangaroos and platypus and koalas.

Unknown Speaker 51:47
100%

Brandon Handley 51:50
The it’s also funny too. Are you able to do me a favor man. Take your camera and swirl it around and rattle off some of the books that

Unknown Speaker 52:01
Like well now, right? Yeah.

Jeremy Snowden 52:05
Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. The Millionaire Next Door right I know that you got that. First things first time traps Elements of Style as far as writing I think you and I think

Brandon Handley 52:16
that’s where we like that’s where we that’s where we hit off right like we really don’t know. Yeah.

Jeremy Snowden 52:23
One minute to do list Heidegger Martin Heidegger, you know, basic writings pemuteran john, which is great, right? I never saw you’re not so smart. It’s more just a analytical book. You got some Seth Godin represent, right? Yeah, check this

Unknown Speaker 52:38
out says one way book man. For sure. Right.

Jeremy Snowden 52:42
Right. So of course Four Agreements represent right. The Alchemist over there while the heart by

john Eldridge.

Hmm. You know, so, uh, I hate to say I’m well read, but I’m just not.

Unknown Speaker 52:57
So. I think

Brandon Handley 52:58
I think the other thing you hit on there too. is, you know, it’s not just reading these books, discussing them and applying them. So otherwise it’s a it’s what they call shelf esteem. Whoo. Right. Right. You know, what good is it doing it? Yeah. Great. You read all the books. What out of that particular book did you love right? Or you know, if you want to, you know, we’ll talk about I talked about high fidelity and the crown a lot, you know, not the chronological order but how you got from how I got from like, you know, blondie, you know, Tomic in 1981 to shatter herbs and Rolling Stones like got into like a you know, man who’s right out to that like a talking heads you know, it’s always the same, it’s the same right like I could tell you a chronological order how I made these brownies and and and the songs and how they made me move. right and and and and what I took out at that time, what was my heart feeling? Same thing with the book. So right like, What? What inside of that book made? What was the? What about that book made you move? What about that book made you change? What changes did you make? Because you’ve read that?

Unknown Speaker 54:18
Yeah. Right. So, um

Brandon Handley 54:23
what are some like great applications that you would give some people from any one of those books include

Unknown Speaker 54:32
include include call heroes, you know, hero’s journey. Wow.

Jeremy Snowden 54:37
Um, well, again, I think that the the hero’s journey is a template for your entire life and it can happen so quickly right in different areas and aspects of your life. So it’s not just a one time winner takes all you know, it’s it’s you got to go through this story again, it’s just a different story. Like, like my kids, they went vegan, right. And I was thinking in my mind Amway is next.

Unknown Speaker 55:05
This only leads to one place.

Jeremy Snowden 55:08
Now, you know, no, not necessarily, but it’s just that we all go through face to face. Yeah. All right. Have you been born again yet? You know, are you

Unknown Speaker 55:16
sure? We go through the? Yep, yep. Yeah.

Jeremy Snowden 55:20
So, um, I think that probably love, of course, the Four Agreements primarily for its, if you will, the, the number, the preface, but the beginning where he talks about how society created things about us, like your name, it’s not your name. It’s what you’re called, you know, it’s not you, you know, or your language was chosen for you because of where you were born. You know, those kind of, so when you when you when you understand that part, then you understand Wait a second, then, I mean, things get really weird. You’re like, what do I do with my hands, you know, kind of thing. It’s, and so I really like that seven hands. Habits of Highly Effective People. Oh my gosh, in terms of, you know, if you’re dealing with anger, for instance, you know, then, I mean, understanding Victor Frankel’s stuff, Jewish, Austrian psych psychiatrist and lecture now he’s on a table exercising his last Enduring Freedom, you know, the power to choose his response. He couldn’t control the stimulus what was happening to him at the time,

Unknown Speaker 56:24
right.

Jeremy Snowden 56:26
And, you know, his response you could control because of the space in between, which is his power to choose.

Brandon Handley 56:33
Yeah, that’s based in between is is it that’s, that’s something that me once you recognize that space in between, so there’s so much power and absolute there’s so much power in that. And you know, not for nothin like I was always like, felt like, you know, the fastest way to answer had to be like the smartest one right now. You’re the fastest One answer, but the more I think about it, like, the person who goes away and comes back with an answer, like the next day and really thought about it, that’s the person I admire, you know the person with a question. Okay, well, yeah, I’ll talk to you tomorrow.

Jeremy Snowden 57:16
Yeah. Nice.

Brandon Handley 57:18
Right and and then and then we usually within that time, you kind of figure out some answers for yourself. And to me anyways, whenever you ask a question, you’re like, Look, not for nothing. You’ve got it. You’ve got a pre loaded answer already. You know what I mean? You’re like, even in even for yourself, right? Like, you know, the whole idea of what you seek is seeking you, right? It’s just like, you’re just, you know, you’re sending out to the university. Like, this is what I’m looking for. It’ll the universe is like, Alright, well, here it is. You’re like, Ah, yeah. where, you know, you know, you know not I don’t know where you you, you only had eyes for that.

Jeremy Snowden 57:54
Right? Right. How about this, just throw a little bit of spice in Coggins did that. How many of us are self sabotaging at the 10th and goal all day,

Brandon Handley 58:07
every day?

Jeremy Snowden 58:08
Because we, I mean, we can see it through the membrane. And we’re afraid what that means.

Brandon Handley 58:14
There’s a really good book on that. Let me see if I’ve got it here. Notice there is I can do anything. I do anything, only if I knew what it was how to discover how to discover what you really want and how to get it. And this is, the concept is about scanners. Right? And scanners are like, you know, I forget what it is, but like, you know, some of us we’ve got this story, that we’re not going to go do this thing, because we feel like why can’t go do this because if I did that, I’d leave my family behind. Right or or like, you know, something would happen, my family, they would get upset with me and so we tell ourselves, all these stories They’re just that write stories. And so we stop ourselves at the 10 yard line. Because internally, we’ve got, like some story that we told ourselves that we heard, you know, 30 years ago.

Unknown Speaker 59:11
That’s so digged. In it’s it’s entrenched. Yeah. Right.

Brandon Handley 59:16
And and whether or not we like to admit it, we know that that’s still in there, right? We’re like, we’re like, now I got rid of that. Like, yo, bro, you don’t get rid of words. Right? They keep coming. They keep coming back. And that’s just like those stories that we keep telling ourselves and then we say, yeah, we think we got it fixed. And we am still there.

Jeremy Snowden 59:35
Right? Yeah. Incredible. Yeah.

Brandon Handley 59:38
Yeah, I mean,

Jeremy Snowden 59:39
that’s a that’s sorry. That’s like, a choice, right?

Brandon Handley 59:44
Yeah, that’s a space right. That’s a space in between, right. That’s a space that’s a that’s the that’s the opportunity to recognize the story that you’ve told yourself over and over and over and over again, and and that’s your opportunity to say Not today.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:01
Right? Yeah.

Brandon Handley 1:00:03
I talked way too much on this one, Jeremy, thanks for letting me talk. I mean, I can see why, you know, you’re you’re the guy that that, you know, thanks for this is how you hold space. I appreciate it. You know where, you know, you’ve got this coming up, where can people go join this group with you?

Jeremy Snowden 1:00:18
Absolutely. Thanks. And first off, I wanted to say, you know, I mean, like, you’re rocking it to, like, as far as like living your ultimate path. I can, I really can see from my side of the screen. Here’s somebody that’s going after it, you know, I’m saying you still have obligations, you still have things you have to do. And so this is extra right

Brandon Handley 1:00:40
side, hustle, whatever. It’s not. here’s, here’s, here’s the thing, and I appreciate that, right. It’s not the side hustle. This is I mean, you’ll listen to a lot of other people. If you make this the thing you have to do. There’s resistance in that and there’s worrying there’s concern and so you will think back, right you hold things back that are true. Do you because you’re concerned what other people may think. Right? And so if you just do it, because it’s true to you without expectation, I mean, we talk about Buddhism, right? And we talk about suffering is due to desires but suffering to me is due to our expectations suffering, his desires, our expectations, not being realized the way that we thought that they were going to come out right. So if we do this with the intention, if I do this with the intention that this has to work, all pressures on this all pressures on me that I lose my freedom with that, yeah, beautiful my freedom with that, so but I do appreciate the truth of the matter is this is true to me. 100% right now, getting to lead with spirituality instead of hiding behind your father for the rest of us was awesome. You know, doing that five group was great. They brought me To exactly where I am today it was necessary. I did you know I did prosperity practice and and dabbled in LA. But that also brought me here to ultimately spirituality. I’m like, you know what, I’m just gonna I’m just gonna leave with spirituality. Like we talked in the in this is like, that’s who I feel like I need to be I need to be the greeter I need to be the person that greets like you just like you right? Like, just like it is 100% you know, so we’re walking the same we’re walking a similar path, right? And and we’re just there to help people out man and the whole deal with this podcast is we’re out there doing it successfully and living our path and having a more fulfilled life through this version of ourselves.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:48
And there are plenty of people doing it. And my total intent is to show you that you can do it too.

Brandon Handley 1:02:58
I love that right. There’s some There’s something else. There’s something in Jeremy’s story that you’re going to hear today that resonates with you that says, I gotta, I gotta follow my path. I gotta, I gotta I gotta open up my own heart. I feel like I feel like I could you know, benefit from hanging out with Jeremy and learning about, um, you know, the hero’s journey, I’ve never heard about it. So go ahead, spend some time there. Understand it’s like to give people space and follow your path, man.

Jeremy Snowden 1:03:25
Absolutely. So we have a

Facebook group, of course, hero’s journey, which immense discussion discussion circle, which means you know, you’re in, you’re in if you want in your in piping, just we follow a DBA D Don’t be a, you know, whatever. Don’t Don’t just don’t troll in there just for the sake of trolling. Yeah, but it’s a great place to be able to connect, you know, it’s a safe spot. Some people what I’ve noticed, too, is there more. They’re more reserved, you know, they they they want to watch for While and that’s fine. And but it’s a great place to connect. And of course, you can message me, of course, Jeremy Snowden, feel free to add me if you’re a guy that’s into growth mindset, if you’re trying to find your way or if you just need some pointers or some feedback, always willing to schedule a call with you.

Brandon Handley 1:04:17
Yeah, I think that’s awesome that you’re holding that space for these people. And, you know, you’re accepting them and you’re helping them. You’re helping them find themselves man. And that’s super important. So thank you for joining. So that’s Jeremy Sloane on Facebook. And I know you’re on Instagram to where should they find you on Instagram?

Jeremy Snowden 1:04:39
Instagram is bald headed Movado. It’s a project that’s a tongue in cheek, I’m biracial. And so I kind of take potshots at you know, the the notion that you know, what are you supposed to be then? So it’s more of a tongue in cheek thanks, but I enjoy it. I love I love I’d love to connect there to all thank

Unknown Speaker 1:04:59
you Thank you so much for joining us today. Cool. Thanks, brother.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai