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Be sure to connect with Anthony over at his website here: https://www.anthonymeindl.com/

Brandon Handley 0:00
4321 Hey there spiritual dope I am on today with Anthony mondo. He is an award winning director, writer, actor, acting coach, entrepreneur, author and inspirational speaker. As an acting teacher. He’s known for revolutionising a more modern understanding of acting training. He found it Anthony mine does actor workshop in 1998 and now has the largest scene studio study studio in Los Angeles and locations and nine other cities around the world, New York, London, Vancouver, Toronto, Atlanta, Santa Fe, Sydney, Chicago and Cape Town. As a filmmaker Anthony has received a number of awards and acclaim. His latest feature film, where do we go from here is available on Hulu. The film premiered at outfest won Best Screenplay award at q films Long Beach and the Jury Award at nycs East Village queer Film Festival. He’s the author of five books, including the bestsellers at left brain turn right and book the fucking job. his memoir, you knew when you were to release in September, which I got? Yeah, that’s how we connected. And thanks for being here. I’m super excited.

Anthony Meindl 1:09
Yeah, my gosh, I was like gonna fall asleep during that intro Jesus. My Suppose,

Brandon Handley 1:17
you know, I had to cut some things out. I was like, I was like, is this gonna I wanted to include though your I wanted to include? For sure your you know your film, right? Because I think that’s, that’s pretty big. Right. And that’s got to feel good. Especially going through your memoir, it’s got to feel really good for you to have that out and have won those awards.

So yeah, thanks for being here.

Anthony Meindl 1:38
Well, thanks for having me, Brandon. Like, I mean, I don’t know how spiritually dope I’m going to be today. But I will try to be my dopest. And we’ll

Brandon Handley 1:45
find out we’ll find out. Yeah, so how I like to start these right is, you know, universe speaks to us, right. And this podcast amplifies what we’re saying. And there’s gonna be one specific listener out there today, that’s going to hear the message coming from you. That’s through source. What is it?

Anthony Meindl 2:08
What’s the message? Yeah. You know, I think acceptance is really a very strong word. And really is to me, the walk, we’re all walking on life, right? Like, because in life, because at the end of the day, there’s nothing else right? Even if we fight against, like, we can use COVID as an example, even if we fight against COVID it is what it is. And it’s here. And, you know, if everybody looks at their own journey, the things that they’ve maybe railed against, or fought against, is oftentimes like a misuse of energy because, or maybe it’s necessary then to get to that place of surrender, or acceptance or letting go or, you know, so I think that the, the point that life is often trying to show us is how do we exist with what is and fighting against it is what causes a lot of suffering. When I’m not, you know, when I teach, or I talk about these things, I’m not saying I’m the master of it. I mean, I definitely know these things, more than just being concepts. I do practice them in my life, but I get triggered and challenged. And it’s it is also what it is, you know, I went for a walk yesterday, and I heard a little girl, she was like, near her fence, and she just shouted, Let it go, let it go. And I was like, Oh, my God, this is a sign from the universe because I was in my head about stuff. And I was like, This, is it accepting and letting go letting these burdens go? They’re a burden, because we make them so often, you know what I mean?

Brandon Handley 3:42
Absolutely not. I love it. Right. So acceptance and surrender, I think are some of the big ones there. And the idea of COVID is here, right? Like this is this is what are you going to do about it? Right? And if you don’t have an impact, like, if you can’t impact it, then just just let it be. Right. So let’s, let’s dig in to your, well, you know, what, actually, to it reminds me of one of the lines in your books to write of the I guess there was some, you know, spiritual master, who was a master, but he’s like, I don’t want to die. Right, right. Like and so just like you’re saying, like, even even though you are, you know, novice Dave itches, right? Like, hey, you know, everybody’s fine. And I feel good, but there’s still gonna be the days that you get angered. So talk to us a little bit about that. So knowing that, you know, all these things, but still feeling these other feelings.

Anthony Meindl 4:36
Yeah, you know, also burning Can I just I want to say one other thing about acceptance, because sometimes when people hear that they might mistake. The first meaning of that to them might mean Oh, well, that just means we’re supposed to accept injustice or accept. You know, people dying of COVID No, no, no, it’s not about inactivity. It’s not About inaction. It’s not about pretending that something isn’t there. It’s really about having this awareness that I think the point about acceptance is we have these constructs in our mind constantly about what we think life should be. And in particular what our lives should be, when I get married, it will be this, when I get successful, it will be that or today, I should be having this because I want blah, blah, blah. And then when that doesn’t happen, it creates so much strife and internal and sometimes external conflict, right. And so a more Buddhist understanding of acceptance, when I say that word is understanding that this is what it is. And then from this point, how do we invite that thing in to be a part of something that we also have to deal with? Because it’s happening? I actually think it’s the rejection of things that cause us to be in so much pain, right? Like, whether it’s the social justice movement, or things that we climate change, things that we have not addressed, eventually are going to make us contend with these things. So I just want to make sure that acceptance doesn’t mean like, pass this pass entity. And I think that also leads to the question just asked is, like, I think, I think we battle our ego. And I think that ego is necessary. It’s part of what gives us the distinction of being in this body. But we also are something other than I always love the iceberg analogy, right? Like two thirds of the iceberg is under the water that we don’t see. And we only see a third of that. And so that’s like, maybe comparable to ego, right? Like we were missing the the soul of the spirit that is hidden from us. And so we’re operating from just what we see all the time.

Brandon Handley 6:50
Well, yeah, it’s funny, you bring that up? Because that’s it exactly. I think I had this conversation twice, yesterday, once with my wife and another with a client. Just the whole iceberg analogy. I mean, one part, right, you don’t see all the all the struggle that goes into what’s on the exterior. Also, you know, the reverse thing being happiness precedes happiness. Right? So like, what’s inside here? shows up outside there, right? But from the outside, say, you’re looking at me, and you’re like, you know, he’s got all the things. And he did it by those actions. But that’s not really it wasn’t those actions. It was like the intention behind those actions. It was, you know, the thoughts and the feelings, right? That kind of built up to all those. But I love I love though, you know, acceptance is not passive, right? acceptance is, like you’re saying invited in. And I also like, the idea of the the things that we’re pushing away are kind of taking all the energy away from us, right? Have you? What’s your take on Shadow Work? Have you done Shadow Work is that something is running with?

Anthony Meindl 8:05
interesting that you say that? Because I, in my teaching of actors, right? I I’ve often talked about the shadow self. And I’ve given many lessons on like, light and, and shadow and, and without going into too much detail. But somebody wants to do some time came up to me and said, Do you do Carl young? Is it young work that you do, you know, young Ian work? And I was like, No, I’ve never I mean, I’ve been to therapy. And I’ve read Carl Jung, but I don’t really remember it. Right. And, and she said, because this is very young in what you’re doing. It’s all he was all about shadows, the shadow self. And, and so I mean, not consciously, you know, I think I tap into the universal pneus of things when I teach, like, a lot of people are like, were you ever in a and I was like, I wasn’t I’m not I don’t drink, you know, but like, I definitely tap into the principles of sort of, I think, these universal spiritual messages. And, but I mean, I think that’s a great segue that we all are channelers at some level, and that the universal principles are alive within all of us. And they’re, you know, encoded in us. And they’re also decoded, if that’s the right word, like, each person interprets the information differently. And I think, again, to have a practice that helps us have access to that more often is kind of part of being here on the planet.

Brandon Handley 9:31
What’s your biggest one acting or do you have something else? Right?

Anthony Meindl 9:34
No, it’s interesting, because when I when I work with actors, Brandon, I definitely feel like I channel like I go to I mean, that’s it’s such a, whatever that word means to people, but I definitely am. So in the moment. I don’t know what I say. Oftentimes, like today I was coaching somebody and he could see here I just, he was like, Oh my god, you got to write that down. I was like, I don’t know what I said that he would tell Really good. Because I was like, it’s brilliant. Because I don’t think I’m saying it’s right. And the person meeting the moment and me with them observing it gives the insight as to how to unlock the person. And so that is a lot of shadow stuff, too, is like, I do think it’s scary. But I think COVID is a great reminder, going into the underbelly of stuff that is very scary and confrontational is necessary for us to get to the other side of what is our purpose? Why are we here? What is this mean? Who are we like, but but if we, if we continue to go on living, like I think, especially as we had been, I think we’re, we’re really asleep at the wheel. You know, what I mean?

Brandon Handley 10:47
Not 100%, I, you know, I hate to say that, you know, with with all the deaths, and all the lock downs and how life is, is a good thing. But like, it’s also been kind of this good thing, where now we’ve got more people who are taking this time to go inside to really take stock of what’s important to them, right? The example I use all the time, my wife quit her job, so that we could, you know, homeschool our children so that they weren’t exposed to, you know, the possibility, right. And, and there’s no need to live in fear. But like, why subject yourself to that possibility when there’s an alternative? Right. And and what it’s done for us is, bring us closer together as a family really see? What had been put on us x from the exterior, right, and like, so we’re doing this from the inside out. Anyway. So, you know, it’s been a good thing. And sometimes it’s hard to see that right in the middle of it. Right?

Anthony Meindl 11:48
Well, when you’re in it, for sure. Right? That’s comparable to when you’re going through a divorce or a breakup or something tragic is happening, and, and you have to hold on, like, I’m always saying, you gotta hold on for dear life while letting go at the same time. Right? It’s both. And, and and then I think when you get to the other side, you you are like, Oh, my god that was so essential and necessary. And I think what you’re speaking of is absolutely correct. I think, yes. You don’t want people to suffer and you don’t want, you know, so many lives that were lost. And we also understand that to be from a governmental place, not having things in order, like they could have been like a lot of these deaths could have been prevented. But beyond that, I think I find it interesting that the universe is always course correcting that maybe not at this epic scale that we’re experiencing right now. But like an individual experience, like you often find, like tragedy or upset occurs in our lives to wake us up to this other life. Yeah, you know,

Brandon Handley 12:51
yeah. 100% So, again, thanks. Thanks for sending me the book, right. Oh, yeah. I love that. I love I love that got the where’s it so i got i love that. And, and I really enjoyed, you know, kind of gone through I had no idea what to expect. Right. And, and are to let you know, like, there’s so many pieces of it really, really touched me. Right. Just kind of, especially the piece like about your father, even at the beginning. Like there was some great laughs right, like, you getting shoved down the laundry chute. Yeah, I don’t want to give too much away. I don’t want it too many spoilers,

Anthony Meindl 13:26
right. boiler I survived it.

Unknown Speaker 13:31
Yeah, right.

Brandon Handley 13:32
The there was a lot of fun takeaways. Lots of underlining lots of just kind of, you know, gone through it. And just the way you told the story was a lot of fun. Right? And it wasn’t it wasn’t, it wasn’t boring. Like it was fun, right? And it was it was genuine. And you could tell that it was like 100% you. And so I just want to share that with you because I haven’t written an Amazon thing yet. So I’ll just have to go back and type this out.

Anthony Meindl 14:04
The best review you give me on Amazon was it wasn’t boring.

Brandon Handley 14:09
Just didn’t suck

Unknown Speaker 14:11
the way

Brandon Handley 14:14
so let’s talk a little bit about how you know you went from you’ve got a couple other you know, bestsellers and you’re you know, doing acting and what makes you want to become a writer and then what led you up to saying, hey, now’s the time for a memoir.

Anthony Meindl 14:28
I know like I do feel I do you have a birthday coming up next week. I feel pretty young to have a memoir. But I you know, I guess we call it a memoir, but it’s more short stories of my life. And like, you know, I maintain one of my biggest principles in my teaching for all creatives is that we all have a story. And that story of our life is the greatest expression of art, you know, waiting to be shared with the world. And it manifests differently for each person, right? It could be you’re a cook in New York City. Or you’re a ballerina, you’re an actor, you’re a writer, or whatever. And I think the, the interesting thing is the things that we have experienced in our life, at a literal level, and then at an artistic level, are are all essential on the journey of our life. And it’s like what you just said, when you’re in it, sometimes it’s really difficult to see it. But if you look back at the Mosaic, or the jigsaw puzzle of your life, and pieces starting to come together, you see themes, right. And I just for me, in my work with with artists is trying to take that autobiography out into the world in on whatever Canvas, they want to, you know, share it. And for me, it comes in many forms, whether it’s the films I’m making, or the writing I’m doing or teaching or acting myself, or, you know, but I think we do do that unconsciously. I’m just trying to, you know, how you engage with the world is a part of your autobiography, it’s been influenced by the things that Brandon has experienced how you and your wife make a dinner together. I know, it sounds so highfalutin, but it’s not it’s really infused with who we are. And I think we and, and I’m not saying these tasks aren’t also sometimes mundane. You know, writing is sometimes really boring, and I hate it. But, but I also know that it’s, it’s purposeful. And so that’s what I try to teach people is how to honor their autobiography. Because so many people Brendan, I think your listeners and and like you were saying earlier about people that you know, see the external or we don’t, especially in our media obsessed culture, we see somebody who is successful. And we don’t, we are only getting like, they’re, you know, they’re they’re opening night, we don’t see the dress rehearsal. So we’re comparing our lives that we often think is like a train wreck to something that’s presented to us as law. And we then then we link, I think, do a snow job on ourselves thinking, I suck, I’m untalented, I’m stupid, I’m not worthy. My story, nobody cares. And that’s when I think we, we lose sort of the, I don’t know, connection to the magic of our autobiography. We cannot compare. That’s just the problem.

Brandon Handley 17:19
Right? Right. Well, it’s, it’s the whole idea and is the cliche, life is what you make it right. Like when you’re talking about, hey, when you come into the kitchen, and you’re and you’re cooking with somebody else, then it, it can be an amazing moment. You can make that a miraculous moment. Or it can be right or it can be like, right, yeah. And so, but in the end there, too, what you’re talking about in my mind, right? I love to like, you know, make you purposeful, and living your biography. But you get to this point where you start to, you’re like you’re talking about why would anybody want to read my thing? Why would anybody want to participate? You’re making yourself small in that moment, right? Yeah. And that doesn’t serve anybody. Right? Like, where I didn’t really find in your memoir, and maybe it’s because reading too fast, but I don’t really find the space where you decided that acting was kind of like your purpose. And you felt like you needed to be on the stage to share all of who you were. So where was that?

Anthony Meindl 18:27
I mean, I maybe, you know, in this, I’m writing other stuff. You know, maybe I will revisit that. Like, I’m just curious. Yeah, no, no, it’s a great question. I, because I remember distinctly, I remember hat going out for dinner with my parents and telling them I wanted to be an actor. And, you know, they were like, Huh, but then they were like, Okay, my dad again was like, if that’s what you want to do, you know, he was like, go and do it. You know, they’ve always been really supportive. But I think, I guess in answer to that question, I just have always felt like not an entertainer, but like an expresser. of, of things. And I feel even more than being an actor. I’ve always been a teacher. Like if I go back and look at my own spiritual life as a child, and like, just the things that I was interested in. I and in my role in the family, I’ve always been the mediator, even though I’m the youngest one. All my siblings, and my parents kind of come to me as the sort of what did they say? And you know what I need? Right? So it’s interesting that I’ve always kind of, and I was always obsessed, you’re too young to know this but all your lives nobody will know this. But when I was in high school, I took this class call. It’s so it’s so hilarious. Anyway, it was called I, oh, gosh, I think I can or something like it was I can’t No, it was called. I can clap. Oh, wow. I hadn’t thought about this forever. And it was written by it was a class about having a positive mental attitude about life. And it was the teachings of Zig Ziggler I love Zig. You you’ve heard of Zig right? I love

Brandon Handley 20:03
Yeah. Yeah, I’m newer.

Anthony Meindl 20:05
Right? And so born to win. Yes. I will never forget, I was in the 10th grade. And I took I took the class because like, it was a pass fail. And it was I could get out of math and take that class. Right. But something deeper must have made me want to take it. And since then, I’ve always been obsessed with this sort of, yeah, dawning consciousness of what it means to think our way into the world, you know, not mind over matter. Its mind into matter. You know what I mean? I love that. Yeah. Yeah.

Brandon Handley 20:42
I love that. The Zig Zig has a lot of fun. Right. And and I think that he was, he was kind of before his time. Oh, right. In this space, yeah. And this face. And he’s actually, that’s actually probably how we’re talking today to be to be quite honest with you. So it was through a book of his that I read and ended up down this this path.

Anthony Meindl 21:07
Oh, see? Yeah, that’s, that’s funny. It’s interesting that you start to find these, you know, connective tissues throughout our lives. Right. And you’re right, yeah. That the whole wellness movement and meditation movement, and he was one of the original thought, you know, forward thinking people about, you know, how to live our best life. It’s interesting. Yeah.

Brandon Handley 21:31
Yeah. So the, the, the, a lot of the a lot of this podcast is based off of, you know, finding your spirituality, right, how you found your spirituality, and how have you leveraged that, like, for your success, or found a more fulfilling life because of it? Right. So why don’t we talk a little bit about how you, you know, became the spiritual guy?

Anthony Meindl 21:54
Well, you know, I also, I think it’s a great moment, Brendon, to tell people like, our spirit is innate. Like, it’s, I think, I think, again, with social media and like anything, if we, sometimes when I like, will watch somebody talking about spirituality in a certain way that I like, I sometimes I find it challenging because it can, again, create this sort of schism in ourselves thinking, we’re not doing spirituality the right way, or I don’t always feel love for God, or mean, or I want to just say, fuck you, you know what I mean? Right, right, right. Oh, that’s all that’s the real spirit. The real stuff is right. With it, and we our culture, loves to live in this sort of, like, you know, they call it on social media like oh my god, something positivity, like toxic positivity. Yeah, there’s

Brandon Handley 22:53
that there’s that I’ve got. I’ve got answers for that, though. Okay, but well, so my answer for the there Yes, there is. Toxic positivity. That’s the, you know, like you were talking about earlier, in the acceptance piece is just like, oh, not taking action, right? Same, same thing. But positivity doesn’t mean like, hey, everything’s fucking great. Positivity simply means we’re moving forward, there is a positive space here was like, all this shit just went down. Guess what? We’re gonna keep moving through it. Right? And, and the thing that you’re talking about here is not in my mind. It’s like, the genesis of spiritual dope is that spirituality is gritty, right? Like, there is a certain like, element of, you know, you are washed up, beat up, dried off, and you are coming back together, like kind of, you know, hopefully stronger than you were before, or whatever. But like, you get to it, you get through a certain point in a degree. It doesn’t have to be like that. But then here’s what happens. people forgot like, who they were, like, you know, maybe two months ago, right? Like, you were the person like two months ago, like, you know, I don’t know what I see some I saw somebody like saying, Hey, you know, we used to, I used to, you know, do cocaine and ecstasy and lick like, whatever off my wife’s nipples or whatever. Now we’re getting mad at each other because I lied to the dog was a meme that I saw. Yeah. So spirituality is just that they’re like, you forget, like, where you came from? You’re like, hey, yeah, you know, you did all those fucking things. And you were, nobody’s saying or even. Not a mess now. Right? But you’ve got like, I love the moment. So share the moment where you truly, at least in the book, right, you connected like with spirituality right before a book fell on you.

Anthony Meindl 24:35
Yeah, I think like what we’re talking about, of like, you know, grappling with, again, the questions why we’re here. How do we, how do I make meaning of this life? And there’s got to be something more right. And I was always searching with those things. And the shorts or I had an acting teacher who asked me Do I meditate after a scene one time and I was like, No, and she’s like, and I literally had, like, No, I mean, grapple with these things. But I didn’t have an outward process or practice of spirituality, right? She’s like, I want you to start meditating. And I was like, how and she’s like, I don’t know, take a candle do what you ever want. So I started with, you know, I was just like, oh, and I was like, This is so boring. Then my friend but that’s this is the funny thing is when you know, the pupil is ready that the the guru appears kind of thing. So weirdly enough, my friend gave me a book around that time, and up until then, he knew him to be very spiritual, but he’d never really know engaged with me maybe that way. So he gave me this book by paramahansa Yogananda. And I was like, What’s this? It’s like, 500 pages. This is way too long and boring. And I was like, Okay, thank you. And I put it away, cut to I moved to LA and I took that book and everything for I was living in New York City at the time, right? When I moved to LA, and I was like, in my place, my apartment at the time, like three or four months. And I was I literally, that book fell off the shelf. And it’s weird, because it wasn’t even it was in the back of my shelf. I don’t even know how it happened because it was buried with books. Like, I’m never gonna read this. It’s never, and I picked it up. And in that moment, I was ready to read it. And I read it. And I was like, Oh, my God, what’s happening to me? Right, and it was just an awakening and opening an aha, like, my heart was very full. And I talked about it in the book. Like, I felt a tremendous amount of love that I it was, like a real thing. And then it disappeared. I was like, Oh, my gosh, how do you get that again?

Brandon Handley 26:40
Right. Right. Right. Okay, so I so 100% that I identified with that so hard, because I went through a similar experience. Right. And, and, and, and so it was great. It’s always great when you’re like, Hey, I’m not the only one. Right. Right. And then and then the other thing that I found very interesting was, I haven’t read that book yet. But I just watched a just watched a documentary on him.

Anthony Meindl 27:10
The Netflix documentary? Yeah.

Brandon Handley 27:14
Yeah, it was one of them. Right? Like Netflix, or Gaia or whatever. You know,

Anthony Meindl 27:19
it’s called, um, you’re the name of it. Not into the light.

Brandon Handley 27:27
I don’t remember the name of it.

Anthony Meindl 27:28
Okay. But but it’s worth watching. It’s a beautiful documentary.

Brandon Handley 27:32
It was really yeah. So it was really well done. But you know, so the my biggest takeaway, though, was wasn’t just about him. And it was so awesome. Right? was super cool. Was that Steve Jobs left that book behind. Right, his funeral. That’s right. So Andy, and like, you know, since we’re in this synchronistic kind of space, right, I’ve read I wrote an article on just that. This past week. And that was like, the day before I read that chapter. I was like, shop. So and, and and so So did you move out there then? And have you been to the US and our house?

Anthony Meindl 28:07
Yep. So I went to Yeah, I’ve done every I mean, I went to India and I spent time in one of his ashrams there, and like, you know, I wasn’t really I didn’t convert to like, Guru is, um, you know, I’ve been very cautious about, you know, because you you read, or you watch documentaries about major cults, and you’re like, Oh, my God, that could have been me, you know, it’s like, I’m always like, Oh, my God, by grace. And and I’m not judging these people, because they come to that aspect with such an open heart and these things that we’re talking about seeking and wanting to know more and but, you know, with Yogananda was very practical. It was like, there is a way out of this suffering. Just do your practice, get over it. Like, it’s really, you meditate, you get your butt in the chair, and you do it. And I’ll say to the great thing about when people come to me and ask about Yogananda, or about any kind of meditation, what I always advocate because he says this, and I found it to be true for myself. After I read that book. I did not I didn’t just sort of go to him only I it opened me to I did have a passionate retreat. You know, I did everything I did. I Alaska, I went on the journey of finding what felt right for me. I went to India a couple times. And so I think when somebody is is open, then you just have to I did tm, like I did, you know, you try many different things, and then you’ll find, like, what feels right. So that’s been and it changes and it can change, you know?

Brandon Handley 29:44
Yeah, no, absolutely. I agreed, right? It, it speaks to resonance. And I hate I hate I hate resonating with anything but it’s the truth, right, like you’ll find you’ll find exactly the kind of, this is the space you should be in right now. And this resonating with me the strikes a chord my body’s like, it feels this feels amazing.

Unknown Speaker 30:05
Right? Right. Right. Yeah.

Brandon Handley 30:06
So the I wasco was was actually pretty funny too

Unknown Speaker 30:12
loud. Yeah. It’s funny.

Brandon Handley 30:14
I mean, tell us tell us a little bit about like, I mean, would you recommend somebody who’s a seeker? Does the same trip that you did like down down to? Where do you head down to? I

Anthony Meindl 30:24
think, yes, I did it in Brazil. Also, I have a good friend, who also teaches with me, she did it in Peru A number of years ago. But you know, it’s interesting reading because this was way before I Alaska has become what it’s become, like, I don’t know which coast you’re on or where you are. But I’m on the west coast and like, they’re, they do Iosco ceremonies here, technically, illegally, like, all the time, it’s become very, I think it’s great. Like, why not, however, comma, you know, I think it you kind of, and I’m not a purist about everything, because everything changes and to have access to ceremony. And to that wisdom is great, right. But I do think, for me, I was going through a horrible breakup, and it was in a lot of pain, in a way I had never experienced and my friend recommended. So this was only got 2008. So how many years ago is that? Right? So 12 years ago, 13 years ago, and I, I just I literally she told me about it, I went online to the place, she said, I booked it without even knowing what it was. And then I did a deep dive into what it was. And I was like, Oh, my God, and I was like, I gotta get my money back. So I could literally call the guy and I was like, um, you know, and I don’t think this is my thing. He talked me off the ledge. I’m glad he did. Right. And then I went there. And I had this whole amazing experience of being in nature and the shaman was from that area. And so I think there’s something to be said about doing it. You know, it’s like anything like going to India? You can’t find anything that replaces India except the experience of India. Right. Right.

Brandon Handley 32:06
Yeah. Yeah. So it’s just diminishes the kind of the truth of it,

Anthony Meindl 32:12
maybe, yeah, maybe. And I know that there’s, I’m sure there’s some great healers and and, and teachers of Iosco that have moved to LA or whatever. And so it’s fine. Just I want people to make sure that they know, you know, just make sure you know, the source, that’s all.

Brandon Handley 32:27
Yeah, no doubt, no doubt, right. Definitely, you definitely don’t want to take away from it. So how do you feel then? You know, when, when you went through, like kind of this and awakening process, right, there’s about the same time that you started your school? Right, is around that? Well,

Anthony Meindl 32:46
yeah. I mean, I started my school, literally, around the time that book fell off my shelf. So in 1998,

Unknown Speaker 32:53
yeah. So,

Anthony Meindl 32:54
I mean, I’ve been teaching, you know, prior to them, but it really kind of coalesced there. And I just, I felt a very strong message to at the time. Now, when I look back, I was not, I don’t want to say ahead of my time, I was in the right place at the right time, because the message that I was teaching was all kind of like conscious awareness through our work. And it was very spiritual and very much about presence essence, the moment, The Power of Now, all of those things before they’ve become so much, you know, they’re, they’re so cultural now. But I and I was kind of like an outcast at first, because it was very Mooney, still in the 90s in the early 2000s, you know, what I mean? And now that work, the work has caught up with itself. And I am very blessed to have been teaching this for 25 years, because I do find that this is, this is where we are heading, you know, you know, well, I think culturally look at this is a great conversation we’re having you have a podcast called spiritual dope, you know, like, I teach from a very spiritual place and, and there’s no shame around using the word soul or spirit or consciousness as our real and it’s hard to I also think it used to get a bum rap, but it was so like a llama dama ding dong, and like airy fairy, it’s science. Now we know what our brain does. When we meditate. We know what happens when we reduce stress levels and reduce cortisol release from our body, you know what it means? So it’s, it’s those things that were fringe during Steve Jobs time, right, right, are are not fringe anymore. And to have a language around it is it’s a real thing. So it’s exciting.

Brandon Handley 34:36
It absolutely is very exciting. What do you think the future of it is for us in this area?

Anthony Meindl 34:43
Well, you know, I’m sure. You know, every prognosticator has so many things to say about 2020 and 2021. And I’m like, Jesus, I mean, Brendon, here’s my thought about I Oh, I’m feeling like I’m gonna cry. I do cry a lot. Don’t worry. It’s just tears of joy. I do feel I don’t know. That’s the first thing. Nobody fucking knows camera should

Unknown Speaker 35:06
say that. Yeah, you’re right.

Anthony Meindl 35:08
Maybe maybe a guru in India knows but I don’t know, I think

Unknown Speaker 35:13
my

Anthony Meindl 35:15
where I take some sort of have peace I read this book during COVID or a couple months back called, oh my god, it’s called kindred and it’s about our Neanderthal on Neanderthal cousins, right? And just what the planet was like, during their time and how they were not these brutish, you know, brutes, you know, unsophisticated and uncultured. And they were actually, like, I don’t know, quite advanced, really, you know what I mean. And, to me, it was a watershed moment, in a way because I, I kept thinking about during there, and I wrote a piece about this recently, but how during their time, there was no an early homosapiens, there was, there was no destination. Being on this planet, there was no ending to get to all of life was only journeying. And we still in our DNA, we are journey men and women, we are nomads, right? It is in our, our system to want to travel and to keep migrating, right. And I think for me, reading that book made me Just think about the the constant journey that we’re all on. It’s an and I guess my point, sorry, I was gonna say was like, they wouldn’t have even known what the word destination was, because it was all journeying. And it was all uncertainty. And that, to me, is so powerful to live in that place. Because we as a modern culture, because of the modern conveniences that we’ve become sort of asleep, because of we have fallen asleep to the truth that we are still in uncertainty, we are still in the unknown, we are still on the great journey. I don’t care that you can go to the target and buy yourself, you know, underwear for $9 it you at Target isn’t a real thing in the big scheme of things. What’s target you’re aiming? Like we’re journeying? Yeah. And there’s you you we have successes and milestones. And those are all things to be celebrated. And I love that we have technology that that creates so many things for us. And yet, we don’t want to lose sight of the journey.

Brandon Handley 37:44
Yeah, no, I love I love the idea to have, you know, it’s it’s all uncertainty, right? and always has been, always has been, and you know, COVID prove that out. Right? Like COVID is like, Hey,

Unknown Speaker 37:57
hello. Yeah.

Anthony Meindl 37:59
On a rock spinning in the middle of dark matter.

Brandon Handley 38:03
Right, right. Yeah, good luck, guys. Uh, and, and the idea to, you know, when you’re talking about, like, all these things that are being mass produced, you know, getting something from Target that’s being mechanically produced, it just kind of makes me think a little bit to have the experience, right, like, you can go I can maybe I can go out to LA maybe find somebody like, you know, off the streets and and, and, you know, have that iOS experience. But am I gonna have to deal with fucking snakes? Am I gonna have to drop off like, you know, go through a couple plane hops go to the river, you know, deal with the tarantula and all that other shit? No. And I mean, there’s, there’s something lost in in that actual journey. Like, if it’s super accessible. Yes, the joy in that, like, you know what I mean, it kind of diminishes the I don’t know, it. Well,

Anthony Meindl 38:51
that speaks to our disconnect from journeying. The, the uncertainty that is the truth about existence, being too reliant on like, our phones and things and buildings, and like what we’ve become accustomed to right. And also, I think it speaks to the biggest challenge we’re facing is, is our disconnect from nature. And so that’s again, we’re part of that that’s, that’s an impulse and a pulse inside us. And I think we’re at to our detriment, we’re seeing how we have separated ourselves from this matrix, if you will, the nature matrix, and that that’s one thing that I think people are not aware of. The planet will be fine. Yeah, it will, again, turn into another been six or five other mass extinctions and it will turn into something else. Right, you know, but it’s interesting to really think about Wow, we’ve made the thing that isn’t real real.

Brandon Handley 39:54
That’s fair. That’s fair. I enjoyed your your what you took the piece of Want to pay you to the toilet paper roll? And you did that? Oh, you saw that? Yeah. How long? How long have we been here? We’re like, you know? Like, not even nothing,

Unknown Speaker 40:07
right? Nothing, right?

Brandon Handley 40:09
I’m pretty sure the dinosaurs weren’t like, hey, they’ll never get rid of us. Right?

Anthony Meindl 40:13
And then in a flash were gone. Right? Isn’t it crazy?

Brandon Handley 40:17
Maybe they just packed up and flew off, though. Come on, we don’t know nothing about him. He don’t know. Don’t know, we don’t know. So let’s talk a little bit about like, you know, how, how is acting, you know, kind of beneficial during even like COVID uncertain times or just in in a in a matter of finding yourself in flow and being able to express yourself. Tell me a little bit about that? Well,

Anthony Meindl 40:42
I always say, and I guess maybe I should just march to Congress and do it myself. I wish somebody could hook me up with, you know, a congressional page or someone, I feel like I should go teach an acting class to everybody in Congress, because the art of acting is the art of empathy and compassion. And what we’ve lost, you know, again, it makes me really sad, is this ability to stand opposite someone we may not agree with, or be in conflict with, but still see their humanity and still, to let them in? And I think acting does that, that you that actually through conflict, you have resolution. So I think conflict is really an important. And it’s, it’s kind of what’s evolved us, as you know, as a species as from organisms to it’s not been easy for anybody or anything, you know, that to be alive on this planet is churning, constantly churning to evolve into something else. So there is going to be conflict, but conflict does not have to necessarily mean what’s it’s not a pejorative, I guess you know what I mean? In other words, like, I guess I heard the other day that it’s, it’s thinking more in terms of like, even, let’s say a lion attacks a zebra, right, and kills the zebra high conflict. And it sounds like one person, one animal wins, the other doesn’t. But if you then step back and see that it’s all part of the system, it’s actually a cooperation. It’s it’s like, it’s all part of this thing. But I think if once we become fractured, and we don’t see that opposing views are also part of a thing. That’s why we are, I think, in trouble. Because it’s not black or white. It’s not republicans are bad. And democrats are correct. It’s not. It’s really about. We need both. It’s Yin and Yang. You see what I’m saying? its shadow in light. Yeah. So I don’t know if that answered your question. But I don’t know. I did. It didn’t. But I guess my point is acting is the exploration of all of that. And I think everybody should take an acting class, because you’re more in tune with, I think it’s the scariest thing for many, many people. I teach a very well known. WW. How many W’s are there WWF? Or www f whatever?

Brandon Handley 43:14
The rescue? Yeah, I think two Yeah, two dogs.

Anthony Meindl 43:18
Or maybe he’s a famous boxer. Lightweight by godsey is terrible. I don’t know those sports. But anyway, he either you would know. And then I can tell you when we’re done. But I mean, I’ve interviewed him for my podcast, so it’s fine. I can name names, but um, but he even said he was the world lightweight champion, or whatever category class he was in. And he said, Tony, being an acting class with you was scarier than fighting for that crown. And, and I think it speaks to having to be vulnerable and exposed and to share ourselves. So that’s why people should take class,

Brandon Handley 43:58
to be able to connect with that right to be able to connect with themselves and and to put them out there and share that right. I think it’s that sharing part that really holds a lot of people back, how’s acting help, you know, helping that person get over that?

Anthony Meindl 44:13
Well, I think we’ve become less self conscious about ourselves. And also, we have so much shame Brandon around, you know, we have so much shame around our feelings, our thoughts, behaviors, our past, the mistakes we’ve made people we’ve hurt, and again, realizing it’s also part of the journey. If we’re contrite, and we’ve learned and we’ve made amends. It doesn’t define it’s one part of a chapter, you know, it’s not even a chapter, it’s maybe a paragraph, you know, but I think we were in a shame based culture. Sometimes we don’t have a we don’t have a relationship to that stuff. That’s also an important conversation to have the shadow stuff. So instead, we go underground with it, which then becomes more toxic and more painful. It leads to you know, there’s no doubt That these things then lead to unhealthy expression whether that’s opioid abuse or, you know, whatever, it’s the toxicity it finds its way.

Brandon Handley 45:12
Yeah, look, I mean, it’s gonna make its way out each each thought is a seed, right? You know and and, and you know if you look at you know you you live in LA right you walk down the street cement is broken by grass seeds right that type of thing so I’m in a seat is a seat it’s gonna find its own way to express itself right and you know, we’re humans that’s what we do we express that’s we show up to express and it’s really interesting how that shows up. So, di di Did you find anything writing this book about yourself that you had forgotten about? You weren’t aware of? Were you able to share something through this book that you was like a major release for you just curiosity? Yeah, yeah,

Anthony Meindl 45:56
I mean, I think I’ve always been on this journey of like, for me, I was bullied a lot. And so I think that everybody has suffered from bullying in one form or the other. Even the bullies that perpetrate the bullying are really probably victims of either their own self bullying or are scared of or threatened by the people that they bully, you know what I mean? And so nobody escapes it and and and yet, so it’s caused a lot of damage, but it’s also put me on this path of healing and teaching and, and also seeing that it’s created my art it’s really helped me have a voice and and hopefully help inspire people in finding their voice through their pain and their struggles. And, and so I think, I think for me, it’s been all these things help heal. And and yeah, I had a lot of epiphanies. When my editor told me, she’s like, I told her when I was in therapy, because at one time I complained to my therapist, I was like, is everything you have to do with our childhood? Oh, my God. And I had great parents, as you can probably guess, by

Unknown Speaker 47:00
reading the book, like your mom

Brandon Handley 47:02
says, I want to know more about your mom, though, too. Like, she just seemed like the badass. Right? Like, yeah,

Anthony Meindl 47:07
yeah, she’s very private, like, but but but but even having great parents. Like, it’s funny, because they say having read the book, they weren’t too happy at first, because they thought it depicted them as terrible parents. Wow, I was like, Oh, my God, you guys, it’s a love letter to you. It just goes to show you our stuff doesn’t help us see things clearly. Right? So my editor said, I want you to whatever you’re talking about in therapy, when you have an image of a story that comes to you, I want you to start writing it down. I was like, Do I have to? Just like, yeah, so that’s how the genesis of the book occurred. So we all have stories, Brandon, that’s my point.

Brandon Handley 47:48
Not I love that. I was just curious if there was like anything that really just um, you know, jumped out at you that, you know, you hadn’t thought about for years or, again, was able to just you were able to just really release something. Yeah,

Anthony Meindl 48:00
what can I say? I’ve said this, I had the guy have a lesson about it. One person’s tragedy is another person’s Tuesday. Because this is true. That’s a good quote. I’ve never said that way before. I’m going to use that. But I think I have it in my book. Because my brother, one of the things that I realized is when I wrote the book, and I shared with my brothers some of the things, my brother is that an amazing human being, and we’re very close. But we, you know, I was this gay, little kid that didn’t even know what being gay was. And so he made fun of me, like any brothers would, you know, beat up or make fun of their younger brother. Right?

Brandon Handley 48:35
Especially during that time, right? Like, that was a very nice times. Yeah, that’s

Anthony Meindl 48:38
right. And so I in the book, I have a really haunting story about an event that occurred with my brother, you know, making fun of me or bullying me in a way about being gay. And it affected me so much. And yet, when I shared with him about it, he’s like, Oh, God, Tony. I don’t even remember that. Yeah. Right. He was so apologetic. So it just made me realize, like, oh, gosh, for me carrying that around. That was like a really intense moment. And for him, it was just a Tuesday.

Brandon Handley 49:12
Yeah. Yeah, but so sounds like you had an opportunity to kind of release that right. Oh, for sure. And that that was no, it’s amazing when you get to release something like that. Just how much lighter you feel?

Anthony Meindl 49:24
Yes, absolutely. And forgiveness and, you know, all kinds of things.

Brandon Handley 49:29
So I’m gonna move it back into spirituality just for a second. Yeah, you use that for you know, that’s that’s basically your coaching, right? Like your coaching is your spiritual practice. You know, you’ve gone to India you’ve had chased, you know, you’ve done the soul searching, you’ve been the seeker. But without spirituality without you know, kind of developing and honing your practice. You wouldn’t be as fulfilled as you are now safe to say.

Anthony Meindl 49:57
I mean, it’s impossible to answer random because There’s only been this unfolding there is a you can’t put that back in the bag. I’ve got a friend of mine,

Brandon Handley 50:06
a friend of mine, he goes, is he could use the acronym Tina, there is no alternative. You know, but you know, if you look at, you know, I guess the kind of the pre the pre awakening and pre spiritual Tony versus, you know, novice a Tony?

Unknown Speaker 50:26
Ah,

Anthony Meindl 50:26
I mean, I think that they still are so interconnected. You know. And I think again, I think the thing for our your listeners is to remember that spirit abides within us whether we have a conscious relationship or dialogue with it, it’s there. And it’s there to be awakened whenever you’re meant for it to be awakened. And so for me, it was always something that was a part of my experience, even if I didn’t know how to label it. You know what I mean? Yeah, no, I

Brandon Handley 50:54
agree with that. Right? Isn’t? You said it a couple times. It’s in a right. It’s everybody. It’s in everybody. Right? is and what I like, though, what you just said there was like, addressing it consciously. For me, I did, right? for 40 years, I was like, I was like, I got all this other shit to do. Right? And then then my spirit was like, I was like, Well, what do you want? Right? I’m very similar to your, you know, your moment, like there was like this. You know, days, maybe weeks, I forget exactly how long like you’ve got this kind of natural, vibrant body. Hi, you’re like, I didn’t miss anything. I didn’t take anything. And so what’s happening right now, you know, in my mind, after talking to several people, it could only be one thing. Right? So but it’s it’s inside of everybody. And having that conscious conversation with it, I think is the important thing, and not giving up who you already are kind of really loose back into this too. Because, like you said, You’re not separate from who you ever were just because like, you know, you have this spiritual moment. It’s not changing yourself either. Right. And we talked about like the the grittiness, allowing it to still be gritty, like, I mean, yeah, it’s okay.

Anthony Meindl 52:12
It’s work, right? I mean, it is work. It’s a relationship like any other. I also think though, as I’ve gotten older, I have a birthday next week. And I, I, when I look back at those stories I told or when I think about even my 30s, cuz I’m gonna be 53. I’m like, whoa, I’m a completely different Tony. And if, if you follow science, right, they say, cellularly, your body is regenerated every seven years or something like that, or so I am, like, at a atomic place, I am completely a cellular place, I’m different. But also your awareness and your evolution. If you do work on yourself, you are changed. I don’t even really identify with that, Tony. So every decade or every year, really, you’re a different person, which is so cool. That also speaks to how people can change even though I know there’s the saying that you can’t change someone, but we do change.

Brandon Handley 53:05
Rod, you had a great line in the book too, about realizing in a relationship that, you know, you can’t change somebody realize you can’t change anybody that the only thing is leftovers, like love or something like that. That was like a really good was a good line. It’s right. And it is and then the other part, too, that you mentioned there was your awakening was a Saturn, you know, rebirth away, you know? 29 so I’m in I’m in one of those this year, I think. So, which is also just more entertainment value for me as I’m reading the book. Anyways, listen, I you know, I identified with it, you know, you know, it must have been a challenge, you know, sounds like it was a challenge, especially growing up gay in the Midwest, right? I’m actually from San Francisco, born in San Francisco in the 70s. I was back out there in the 80s. And, you know, I always I embraced gay, you know, growing up, right, like, I wasn’t gay, but I was like, it was there. So it was just like, hey, right, that’s just part of part of life. Right. So, but then to, you know, kind of, you know, be able to express that run your business and and, you know, fully express yourself. I think that’s super awesome to be able to see who you are and to Yeah, well, thank

Anthony Meindl 54:15
you, Brandon. I feel like I’ve known you and I, it’s so great to have this talk about I’m so inspired. Like, I feel like I can I have to go teach it a little bit. But I feel like oh my god, the class tonight is gonna get an extra dose of spiritual dope ism. Now. That’s right. That’s right.

Brandon Handley 54:31
Get your head. Right. So get your commercial dope, Tony. Thanks again for being on Where should I go and send? Is there anything else that you want to you want to cover anything else you want?

Unknown Speaker 54:42
covered at all? Awesome.

Brandon Handley 54:44
Where should we send people to go hang out and find you? Yeah,

Anthony Meindl 54:48
I mean, I guess if they’re interested in my work, I guess, acting related or otherwise, you can go to our website www dot Anthony meindl memd elle.com and then you can always find me on Instagram, just Anthony meindl I’m on Twitter, but I don’t really use Twitter. I just, it’s too much so but so but I am on Instagram because I like photos. So, you know, you can always hit me up there and, you know, I really do try to answer people’s questions if they DM me and I try to be in service as best I can. So,

Unknown Speaker 55:24
yeah, awesome. Thanks again.

Unknown Speaker 55:27
Thanks, man.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Without watering down your faith.

Great conversation with Cory Walker as we discuss being groomed for church leadership, leading a community… and leaving it all behind as his path diverted from the expectations from others.

http://www.churchbeentheredonethat.com/

Brandon Handley 0:00
54321 Hey there spirits of dope. It is Brandon Handley and today we are on with Corey Walker, who is the author of boiling down your religion without watering down your faith. Cory spent about 20 years being a minister correct me if I’m wrong anywhere in here this but a minister in an Pentecostal, Pentecostal I don’t even know how to say it right. Like I said so in a Pentecostal church and stepped out after 20 years of being in a leadership role and kind of took refuge in his own heart on my call, and the sides live just outside of the church confines and more in like I said, john Hart said about right Corey

Cory Walker 0:53
Davis some sort of modular.

Brandon Handley 0:55
So you know, Cory I always like to say that we are Are vessels of the divine right? The Creator speaks through us. Right. And and when people are turning in tuning into this podcast, they’re tuning in to hear a message that is being delivered through you to them. And my question to you, as we start this thing off is what what is, what is something somebody out there needs to hear today that can only come through you?

Cory Walker 1:26
Wow, great question.

Cory Walker 1:30
Well, there’s several different things. I could go here, but the long and the short of it is don’t be afraid to make a change, if you feel like it, if it’s following your heart. So many of us were raised that particular way. We’re taught what to believe, and taught how to be taught what to think without being really taught how to think. And you if you’re just believing doctrine or someone else’s beliefs, and you’re trying to hold to those instead of actually listening in Your heart towards the divine. And my case, God would be wanting to say to you that you could easily spend years following something that that you end up feeling like you’ve wasted time later on. So don’t be afraid to make a change. I guess that’s my, that’s my off the cuff response.

Brandon Handley 2:16
Sure, sure. I love that. I mean, and you did right, you made the made this change to 20 years and I think the the line that comes to mind is you know, don’t put your ladder up against the wrong wall right through and and that there’s really nothing. And I think that a lot of people are afraid to kind of go chase this thing, but what you’re saying is, even even after maybe climbing halfway up the ladder, maybe you’ve already made it all the way up to the top, but

Unknown Speaker 2:47
it’s okay to make a change. It’s okay to climb

Brandon Handley 2:49
back down and go climb another ladder. Is that what I’m hearing you say?

Cory Walker 2:53
Yeah, definitely, especially if the letter sounds or letters keeping more consistent, like what you’re feeling in your heart. I just know. You know, it’s Been a pastor for so many years, I met with so many people talk with so many other leaders who, who knew how to toe the company line. But in private, they would say, Well, what do you think about this, though, that doesn’t really sit with what we believe and what we teach. But it’s like they had their own private belief system outside of the public one that they were telling everyone else. And you just can’t do that for extended period of time without, you know, driving yourself crazy. Because the inconsistency just couldn’t live that kind of dualism. And so you try to modify what it is you teach and teach the parts of what you have what you’ve learned and believed over the years that still ring true with you, and leave the other parts out of the fact is the whole. The whole last two years, my ministry I never preached even one sermon from the Old Testament part of the Bible, because it seemed to communicate that there was an angry God who was demanding that you behave a certain way. And if you didn’t do you’re in big trouble. And that just didn’t jive with the message of Jesus, which was what’s taught in the New Testament to me, and I understand the theological demands sticks that people do that night to neatly tie the two together because I went to Bible college but that doesn’t mean that the average Joe and common sense of really why don’t we are under grace, why do I have to do and you fill in the blank whatever it is your local church is telling you you have to do in order to be a good Christian.

Brandon Handley 4:18
Sure, sure. And I think the thing is, it’s a shame that Christianity’s you know, kind of been fractured in so many different ways away from the the, the true meaning of the messaging right now. And what the hell do I know though? I really don’t know too much. I don’t I haven’t been involved with too much of it. But what I do know is that when I have a conversation with you know, somebody such as yourself that you know, is really just been immersed in it and and they find Jesus or I think, what do they call it like a, you know, the Jesus consciousness, right? It’s kind of like, you know, one of the things that gets tossed out there is what’s in those books is kind of like truth and from the heart, but how its interpreted and spun back around is either liberal or kind of fit fitting the needs of the organization that’s driving it.

Cory Walker 5:19
Now let’s move on been so true. You know, parts of the specifically if you read the gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and john, telling me all about the life of Christ in His, the economy of Christ, if you want to love your neighbor, pray for your enemies. Love those who persecute you go the extra mile turn the other cheek, those kind of things rang really took my heart, but the way in which the church lives out the teachings of Christ, and that’s them together with with a lot of the old, old covenant Old Testament law type, you know, thou shalt nots, and just the whole organizational structure that’s set up to basically support itself. I just reached a point when I realized that you Man formed these nonprofit organizations that we call churches to supposedly help the members who are the people in their spiritual walk. But somewhere along the way, the organization starts to expect the members to do what’s in its best interest and spin it

Brandon Handley 6:17
around. I would like to I would like to kind of caveat it right. This has been your right. Yeah. So I mean, because there’s that there’s definitely got to be a couple out there. Right. They all Yeah.

Cory Walker 6:29
Yeah. I don’t want to categorize across the board is my experience. Yeah, with the with eight or 10 churches that I was either attending or on staff at over the years, the older the organization, the more likely it is that the the, the principles get minimized, and the traditions get emphasized. And as a result, it’s about self sustaining many times instead of about really bringing life and health to, you know, the average individual and once I realized that then I just took Couldn’t, I just couldn’t myself, continue to be a part of one. And I’ve even thought now that I’m not on staff someplace or a pastor someplace that, well, maybe I should just attend this church or that church, and I’ve stepped into a couple for service here there. And it just doesn’t take long when you’ve been in leadership for a while for you to start hearing the same familiar, you know, course and tone of what it is we’re supposed to do. And it was supposed to is that kind of wore me out, I think.

Brandon Handley 7:27
Yeah, no, that makes sense, right? It’s kinda like all the shoulds and codes that we could be doing. Well, let’s, let’s roll it back here for a second. So let’s tell, you know, tell anybody listening today that, you know, what type of church were you? a minister at and a leader and then what does that even mean? Right, because like I said, we talked about Pentecostals. Let’s talk a little bit about what that is and what that’s built on top

Cory Walker 7:54
of, if you could, sure. Yeah. Well, essentially, within Christianity you have two veins. You have Catholics Protestants. And in the Protestant vein, you have thousands, literally thousands of what we call denominations, which are different or different organizations, like Baptist or Methodist or Pentecostal, different Pentecostal denominations. But the bottom line is, each one of them has a different set of standards and rules for themselves that they believe slightly different than the other ones. And the fact is, all of them would tell you that they were originally formed because some people who were a part of some other organization said, Well, we think we got a new enlightenment or we got just a little bit better understanding. So we’re going to form our own. And so I grew up in those in most of those denominations in America anyway, sit within a category called have called evangelicals, and many times, also called fundamentalists, and those are people who have a belief that there’s a divinely inspired scripture, and in our case, the Bible, and that is to be literally interpreted and applied to your own life and there things in the scripture that I have discovered that just didn’t seem to sit well with literally applying them to my own life as an example that were like there’s a there’s a passage in the Old Testament that talks about one of the prophets, I believe it was Elijah, what could have been Elijah, I was getting confused. And it says that, that these this prophet was walking in the woods and have a group of juveniles it says are teenagers came out and started teasing him because he had a bald head, he didn’t have any hair. And he says that he called down a curse upon them, and a bear around out of the woods and devoured some of them and wounded the others. So this was the man of God that we’re supposed to be you know, maybe patterning our lives after looking up to her as a fundamentalist your thinking was, I could get so special that it wouldn’t be okay for kids to even tease me about my bald head. And if I was upset about it, I could call on a curse upon them and kind of wild animal could come and attack them. Did this didn’t sit well with my concept of God or with my understanding of Christ and his philosophy of loving your enemies and things like that, but yet, fundamentalists have to weave all those stories together in the Bible and all those truths and things that are there and try to apply them to their daily lives just becomes quite a quite a conundrum.

Brandon Handley 10:22
So they’re a fundamentalist, and they’re applying it literally. They’re, they’re not using like that in any symbolic terms,

Cory Walker 10:31
or allegory. Yeah, it’s one of those things. That’s not really how it’s taught. And most of the most of the denominations it’s taught as this was an Old Covenant time where God related to man in a different way than he does now. And so things have been different back then than they do now. And that you know, kind of how we smooth it over and help people feel better about you know, the Sodom and Gomorrah and the gods flooding the earth and you know, everyone but Noah being killed There’s no assembly being killed, things like that. But I remember as a, as a father of young children go into, you know, our evangelical church and just thinking, I don’t want to send my kids to Sunday school because I don’t want anybody to teach them some of these stories. And I don’t even know, I don’t know how the, I don’t know how the Sunday school teachers going to teach them these stories, or they’re going to teach him, you better behave, or God’s gonna get really mad at you, and rain down fire and brimstone on you, you know, or turn you into a pillar of salt or whatever the other story is in the Old Testament. So, you know, fundamentalists do believe in a literal interpretation of Scripture. And therefore those things would not be allegory or symbolic things that actually happened. And God was relating to man, I personally now, I still hold great reverence for the scriptures and find a lot of truth in there. But I just see them as being written. While there’s a lot of truth, they’re written from a man’s point of view. And man was walking in the light that he had at the time and the culture was different, and therefore, even some places like Like even one of the even one of the passages where supposedly Moses wrote the passage, it was handed down through generations of verbal, you know, communication that eventually recorded but it says right in the passage, Moses was the greatest of leaders at all times. So they’re like, let’s he writes about himself for Charlie aggrandized themselves? Or is this really you know, what’s going on? So, it’s just, you know, you just gotta understand that people are just, you know, culture was different back then. And it was recorded from man’s point of view, and not necessarily, from God’s words, to my ears to the pin on the paper type of inspiration.

Brandon Handley 12:37
Sure, yeah, I definitely get that I definitely get that. You know, but I got a wonder too, like, you know, so, this was also, you know, book that was compiled, you know, a library books, right, compiled, you know, way back when, and the translations over time as well. Right. And then one of the things that kind of pops up. I’m a fan of this guy, bill donohue, who, who, you know, has some pretty cool stuff on on YouTube. But he talks about, like, you know, what they were saying then could be real similar to so I’m hearing you talk about this, you know, called the curse and the bear chews them down, you know? And I’m thinking of how he would translate it and say it, it’s how we would say shooting the bull. Right? What was the other meaning of you know, calling that bear down on them? Right, you know, was that the bear within the man coming out and like, kind of raging out against some of those? Those are the types of things right, it’s really kind of a formula and you gotta you gotta wonder exactly, you got to really wonder and kind of play with it because I don’t personally feel like this was a book that was written to instill fear so much. Higher divinity.

Cory Walker 13:51
Yeah, I think it’s it was written, to help us to understand, in fact is to understand what God was like and, in fact, Jesus Himself So as you know, he comes incarnate. It’s like God in the flesh to show us what God was really like. But then he goes around loving the least of these, if you will, and hanging out with people that it wasn’t cool to hang out with prostitutes and tax collectors and all these people the riffraff of the day. And he really makes the religious people are really mad about it, you know, the Thera sees and the sadness is they’re getting all ticked off all the time. Because Jesus not really interested in in hanging with them. He’s hanging out with the least of these. So I think you see, at least from the perspective and the story of Christ that the gods are more concerned about the little guy than he is how spiritual react or you know how much we’ve got our ducks in a row.

Unknown Speaker 14:42
Now, fair enough, fair enough.

Brandon Handley 14:43
So, Pentecostal, what does that mean? Was it meant to mean to be a Pentecostal or Penn is a Pentecostal or Pentecost? Yeah,

Cory Walker 14:49
sir. Pentecostal. Um, yeah, essentially Pentecostalism started around 1900 and it’s a form of denomination several denominations of one of Christianity, that, that believes in the teachings of the Day of Pentecost, which is found in the book of Acts in the Bible. And it talks about a variety of gifts that God gives to man’s spiritual gifts. But Pentecostals focus in on one, which is called speaking in tongues, and it’s one of the more controversial ones. Or if you may have heard of, you know, holy rollers or people swinging from the chandeliers or wildfire, and all this weird kind of stuff in Christianity over the years, and over the last hundred hundred years or so, it’s all about Pentecostals, and it’s about having an emotional experience with God. And as a result, feeling like you’re greater connected to him, and I can really value and understand that desire, though. It’s also very centered around worship, which in modern context is, is the singing and playing of music, to bring reverence to God and to honor God and to talk about how good he is. But it’s all about what kind of experience in a Pentecostal church what kind of experience you can have when you Get together. It makes you feel good emotionally goosebumps on your arms, you know feeling like God’s presence is right there with you in the room. And all this stuff is inside emphasize you know from our kids church, we’re little kids and go into special special church service for them on Sundays right on up through the youth groups run up through the adult service. And so, you know, God really showed up is what we’d say if you felt you know, something emotional happening when when the worship was going on, or when the preacher was preaching or whatever the case may be.

Brandon Handley 16:31
Sure, no, I mean, I can I can definitely appreciate that. I know that actually just did a did a piece on the word numinous. Right? And it really sounds like it kind of speaks to the same type of space right where you’ve got connection with God or an experience. Um,

Unknown Speaker 16:50
and so,

Brandon Handley 16:52
I love I love it. It’s just sounds to me like it may have been

Unknown Speaker 16:56
over over exalted.

Cory Walker 16:58
Now. What came to focus yeah became the focus instead of me being one way to experience God, maybe it’d be the only way.

Brandon Handley 17:06
Sure not and I can I can definitely appreciate that. It’s very interesting. So the you said that there was a number of gifts and one of them speaking in tongues? What are some of the I mean, I don’t know the Bible myself, right. So how does somebody have the gifts that maybe, maybe some people aren’t aware of?

Cory Walker 17:22
Well, the Bible speaks of different spiritual gifts. And one particular case there’s a short list and then scattered throughout the rest of the Scriptures, that mentions other gifts. Like there’s a gift of spiritual gifts of gifting, where maybe God empowers you to make money, so that you can give that money towards his plans and his services. But then the fancy ones, if you will, the gifts that people were always hoping to have were like words of knowledge and words of wisdom, which would mean you’re speaking in a conversation with somebody and you have, I would call it you have a thought drop into your head and you share that thought with them and then boom, they’re suddenly hit. just overwhelmed was oh my gosh how did you know that or or contacts incredible how did you you know have to there’s no way you could have come by this on your own like God just dropped information into my head to share with you know almost on a profit basis and gift the process he was one of those things as well which was kind of speaking on God’s behalf more so than speaking to predict the future but so there’s all these different gifts and you were told you know this The Bible tells you to seek seek spiritual guests especially those that that build build up the body build one another up. But once again and this is coming across like Korea is the the tainted former pastor that is but but it seems like people are always looking for what we have made them look the best because all this happens most of these things I think God intended for them to be lived out in our daily lives. But something in modern Christianity is that we jam. We instead of seeing the churches who we are every day we see the church as a place we go In an event that we attend, so what happens with the spiritual gifts, what’s important is what happens when you get together. And therefore you’re doing it almost on a platform situation where you’re in front of others. And the man’s tendency to want to look good and pride gets in there. And you know, you never can tell what might happen. So, I chose doors. I’m not going to but I can tell stories.

Brandon Handley 19:23
No, I appreciate that. Right? Like so I mean, it as you’re kind of listing these off, right? without me being a member of a church or without me kind of going through the Bible, you know, this gift of giving is something that speaks to me, right, like, if you’re willing to give to others, then it’s my interpretation or my thought process that you know, the universe is going to continue to give to you, right, God’s gonna give you if you’re giving, you’re going to receive, right. And that’s, that’s kind of one way that I look at it, right. And then as you’re talking about these words of knowledge and wisdom, you know, words of wisdom. It can’t But make me think of the Akashic Records stuff. Right? So just kind of linking like different different. Yeah. Yeah. different spaces and, you know, gift the prophecies. I mean, I don’t know. Right. I think that i think that’s everyone, right? I think that it kind of, to me that kind of rolls back up into, you know, speaking in tongues, right? I just got goosebumps kind of thinking about it, right? Like, it rolls back into feeling that emotion and knowing that you’re kind of, you’re speaking your truth, right. But as you kind of roll back all the way back over to here, like, you know, each person kind of comes up with like, their own epiphany is like, oh, I’ve got a better way to explain it, you end up like, many, many thousands of different ways to kind of embrace and feel connected to God. Right. And, and for each person, I think that experience is going to be individual.

Cory Walker 20:50
Yeah, and I think that’s good because you know, a variety of theory, a variety of belief systems and a variety of ways, is a good thing because it allows each person to find The one that connects best with them. My biggest challenge over the years had been the the competitive nature that sets in. I remember growing up and there’s sometimes a god churches, which is the domination I was a part of, and they kind of cost the combination and they didn’t specifically teach it but you know, my wife grew up in the same denomination and both of us had a conversation where just kind of came away feeling like, you know, if you were a Christian, but you weren’t Assemblies of God, you weren’t quite getting it. All right, and, and you probably know that make it to heaven, but he probably wouldn’t get as many accolades as we would, because we were a part of this something of God. And so I went off, I went off to Bible College. I know that that wasn’t specifically taught in any of the classes, but I came away with the same feeling like we’re the elite. You know, we’ve we’ve got it going on. But one of the pastors in the church that I used to serve that used to say, he used to get up a couple times a year before Easter, the week before Easter, and the week before Christmas, and you get up and announce to the whole congregation, hey, you know, there’s people who only go to church twice a year on Christmas and Easter. And he said, You should invite people to come to our church on those days. Because if they’re going to go to church on twice a year, they should at least come to church or maybe something good could happen in their life, no kind of little dig at the other church. And it’s like they weren’t, you know, good enough, or whatever it is that that had crept in to almost every church scenario that I’ve been a part of, and I think it’s just a part of nature of man. Okay, okay.

Brandon Handley 22:24
No, I mean, that’s, that’s all fair. Right. So, you know, for so you’re a part of this for like, 20 years, last couple parts. You know, you just kind of started to fall out of it. And I’ve read briefly through your book. And you mentioned a book where you kind of helped you to kind of start separating away. Right. And you’ve shown it to one of your leaders. And he got it was like, Yeah, I don’t buy into this because it didn’t sound like it match with his way of thinking. Right,

Unknown Speaker 22:51
exactly. So

Brandon Handley 22:52
I’d love to hear a what was the book that kind of, you know, sure. It kind of changed your mind a little bit. What was that book

Cory Walker 23:01
I’m going to try to get the name right here. It’s a misunderstood God, and the lies that religion tells about him. I think the author was Darren Hufford. And he was a former pastor as well. But he was talking basically the same way that I have been, which is that there’s this God who loves you unconditionally, and has, has bent over backwards to make a way for you to connect with them. But yet religion spends a story, that’s something different, that seems undesirable to many people. And as a result, a lot of folks who want to find God don’t think that they can. And it just really started me thinking, the challenging some of the concepts and really, you know, you read a book and something rings true with you on the page and like, Oh, yeah, I’ve been thinking that for years. I just kept having that, you know, those kind of moments as I was reading the book with my wife, and I was like, wow, and then we just dove into, I don’t know, one point time, was right when I first started reading electronically, I had a I had a book reader at the time, and I remember And that period of time over about a year and a half that we digest, like 60 some different books, all around the same topics of church and what God intended for the church to be and spirituality and different things like that. Now, I’m a part of a men’s book group and we read, you know, a book a month and discuss it on Monday nights and we’re reading stuff that’s outside of the vein of Christianity, which I’ve always found to be very interesting because when you read outside of what’s your typical goto and you find the same truth elsewhere, then it starts to make you think that it’s because the author of the things that you hold dear, likely was the inspire some of the other things that you’re finding elsewhere in college. They called it all truth is God’s truth. Doesn’t matter where you find it. It says true.

Brandon Handley 24:50
Yeah, you know, and I agree with that, right. It’s it’s really interesting to find all these nuggets of truth everywhere. Right. It doesn’t really matter what you’re you find yourself reading, you start to see, like you’re saying kind of the same vein of how even movies, you know, show shows I’m watching. I’m like, Is anybody else seeing what I’m seeing here? Because it’s so it’s so obvious to me the story that’s being told. And again, though, it’s really like we started this, we start this podcast off with, you know, Cory, I’d like you to say something that only somebody else out there is gonna hear and understand. Right? It’s it’s kind of like I the way I’m watching that movie, or series, maybe nothing like what it was intended to be delivered. Right? Right. But I’m receiving it in a certain way, because that’s how I’ve set myself up

Cory Walker 25:45
now. But there’s a divine source that’s enter weaving truths throughout all genres and all aspects of life because because that divine source that I like to call God wants us to understand him and understand life. So So much that he’s willing to inspire people that don’t even know that they’re being inspired by them to share truth

Unknown Speaker 26:06
in a way that Okay,

Brandon Handley 26:08
again, like I mean, you know, something’s coming through you being spoken through you

Unknown Speaker 26:12
right now, this moment that

Brandon Handley 26:15
is intended for somebody else not even intended for you, for me, right now even intended for me and I love this. So here’s a really interesting book. It’s called horror, right? It’s called the vital center of man by he was a an analyst, the psycho psychological analyst, but he was also a orthodox, practicing Orthodox Christian, but he also spent time and about eight years with Zen masters, right. And, you know, one of the things that this one Zen masters said to them, was, it never occurred to me to keep keep weight to keep in my head what I’ve read If I mainly read the Bible or Buddhist books and prayers, I find that only such things that agree with my own thoughts. And I think that that’s what you and I are saying here is that when we’re reading now we’re like, the books are almost a mirror to what we’ve already learned and know, right? And this has been spoken back to you. And I find I found that was like, an amazing moment, right? When I read that line, I was like, holy shit, because I told my wife, I was like, everything that I’m reading is everything I’m already thinking of, and I’m just looking for the words to properly express it.

Cory Walker 27:31
Yeah, right. Some people and some people would say that you, you draw to yourself. There’s kind of a supernatural principle that you draw to yourself with as you’re looking for. You know, I just recently bought a different car. And the for my work vehicle and the type of card is I’d never really had thought about getting one before but once I got them then suddenly I see everywhere. I mean, every time I turn around, has fallen down the street. So it’s like, I didn’t look someone else’s got another one of those just like I do, I see it in part. parking lots everywhere. It’s like your mind becomes attuned to that which you’re used to or that what you’re looking for. And I looked for when I decided that’s what I wanted to buy, I was out there looking for him everywhere. And as a result, I’m My mind is turned on to that. I think it’s the same with what you’re saying what it is that you’re thinking and you’re feeling in your heart. And suddenly you start to see it come alive in the pages of books or in the movies or in the newspaper, on television shows or whatever.

Brandon Handley 28:25
It’s everywhere. It’s everywhere. My first my first blog and my first blog and a couple of my first videos was called just a wit You know, this is called the blue car effect. Right You know, they’re looking for a blue car you see him everywhere is exactly what I’m saying. And, and, you know, I often go through just like what you’re saying once you set that question in your mind you know, the answers start coming up for it right you don’t sure we go look and we Google, we do all these things, but it’s almost easier to ask you know, quote, unquote Ask the universe for an answer. Just let it kind of come to you let it show it will show up. Once you have that question for yourself, the answer will show up. Now you can do it again, you can go hardcore and go hit and all the books and put all this pressure and stress on yourself. But chances are, that answer is gonna show up.

Unknown Speaker 29:18
Right? Totally. Yeah.

Brandon Handley 29:21
So, um, you know, so where are you? I mean, what’s it like, now you’ve left? What was the separation? Like, I’d love to hear kind of like what that was like, and, you know, in in that in that scenario,

Cory Walker 29:32
that was like, divorcing everybody that you held dear. Hmm. And having everybody be mad at you, or at least it felt like it anyway. I’m sure part of its interpretation. But you know, when, you know, we kind of we didn’t really spend a story but you know, when we decided to move we moved. We decided to move when we decide to leave church we we moved out of the community we were part of and moved six hours away to a new area, and it had been On our heart to do it anyway. But this new area was very spiritually minded, but not real big on religion. So church attendance is really down here. But you see all kinds of alternative spiritual pursuits going on. And, and that’s kind of what we felt drawn to not that we were going to, you know, go start reading poems or doing something, you know, there was necessarily new age or this or whatever we still consider ourself Christians, we just felt like we wanted to be around non traditional people, because they’d be, you know, they’re not going to be looking down their nose at us because they don’t show up. And so the Pew on Sunday mornings, so it was a difficult time. Even my folks right now still have, I don’t talk about anymore, but I’m sure that they still shake their head like, I can’t believe you know, we raised this young man. And he, you know, felt this call on his life to go become a pastor. And then he did 25 years and now we just build on the whole thing. But what they don’t understand is my philosophy and I shared my book with them, and I hope that they’re gaining understanding but the philosophy is if we are the Church and that is the body of Christ as Christians, and it’s not the building. And it’s not an organization than whether or not we choose to go sit in the Pew on Sunday mornings are not as real as irrelevant. It’s whether or not we’re following the truth of God as expressed through our life and how we treat others on a daily basis. You know, my friend Jeremy messaged me earlier today and he said, What are you doing on this fine Lord’s day? And he was saying a tongue in cheek because for years for a year or so after I stopped attending church, my dad would text me about every few weeks and so on Sundays and say, What are you doing to honor God on this Lord’s day? And I started texting him back and saying, I thought every day was the Lord’s Day. Like we’re supposed to do something special on Sundays, right? But reality was saying, hey, let’s just make every day special and, and how we treat others and, and, and our daily practices is just as important everyday as it is on Sunday mornings.

Brandon Handley 31:56
So I mean, I’m curious. If you You know, kind of going through that separation process, if those are some of the words that you would use to share with others as to why you were leaving?

Unknown Speaker 32:10
Yeah.

Cory Walker 32:13
Most people didn’t ask quite frankly.

Cory Walker 32:17
You know, one of the reasons was, we were moving five, six hours away. So they just don’t know what we do or don’t want or what we don’t do. But the other part was for those who are closer, they grew up in the same kind of fundamentalist belief system. And there’s one particular scripture that says, Don’t forsake gathering together with other believers, as some are in the habit of doing and that that interpreted by every pastor I’ve ever heard, speak meant, make sure you’re in church on Sunday morning. And so when you just choose to say, that’s not, that’s not funny, that’s beneficial. And I don’t want that to be a regular part of my ongoing life, then people just, you know, there’s another practice that just kind of shown you it’s not necessarily intentional. I remember for years People have stopped coming to church and you try to get them to come back and let us not come back. And then you just say, Well, you know, that’s on them, I guess I’ll just minister to the ones who are still here, you know, but you just kind of gave up on them. And there’s a passage of scripture which says, if somebody departs of faith, try to try to turn them back. And then if they, you know, they still claim to be good followers of God, but refuse to do the things which are they’re supposed to be doing. They don’t have anything to do with them. And so I think a lot of Christians have been taught over the years based upon that scripture, that is somebody off the deep end, whether it’s messed up and drugs or alcohol or you know, cheating on their spouse or even just not going to church anymore, that you just kind of don’t have anything to do with them, either. Because somehow it’ll teach them a lesson, or because somehow their disobedience if you will, is going to tank, your spiritual walk. It’s just not a healthy thing. But unfortunately, that’s kind of the way it is a lot of boys.

Brandon Handley 33:54
That’s interesting, right? So, you know, Were you upset at all that nobody asked you You know that you know, get more requests?

Cory Walker 34:02
Yeah, you have a little bit of, it’s probably more grief than anger, just a little more grief, but you invested a lot into relationships, and then people just kind of, you know, part of the move, I’m sure, but that plays something into it. Because when you live six hours away from where you weren’t living, it’s just not convenient to connect in the way that you were before. And if like, oh, Cory and Lisa, his wife just moved off, you know, so Okay, well, I guess we’ll find some new friends. But you know, unfortunately, unfortunately, but I do have several. I have a band of about five brothers that good good men that I’ve known for a number of years and we all stay connected. Fact is, they’ve come down here and visited me multiple times we’ll have a rent a cabin or something and go out on the lake or, you know, sit around the bonfire, you name it, and it’s just been really encouraging time. So.

Brandon Handley 34:54
Okay, so you also mentioned being around people that are spiritually minded, right? What does that what does that mean to you?

Unknown Speaker 35:03
Huh? Yeah, it’s uh

Cory Walker 35:07
it all starts with heart to me. I mean, I’m not a big fan of doctrine, which is philosophies and ideas that we are taught that we follow as much as I am. What’s your heart? How do you? How do you perceive the universe in your case, or God, in my case, is, is wanting you to interact with others? And are you being true to that. And there’s a lot of people around here, even though there certainly would not be considered Christians, by most or even by themselves, that we’re living more of a Christ like life. So how they lived out their heart, then a lot of people that I’ve known in church over the years, because it was about checking the boxes and doing the to do lists, more so than how we treat everybody on a daily basis. So find a lot of people like that and we’re connecting with a lot of them. It’s been it’s been a journey. It’s Rio when you leave behind your paradigm and not just your city, you know, the, the place and the venue in which you were interacting with others is now gone because we don’t attend church, then it becomes really important what you do with your daily life when I’m working with my customers or my friends or working, my kids are working with their co workers or my wife’s interacting with people in the neighborhood, those things become incredibly important because they’re really the only interaction that you have. And that’s where your social life is going to grow from.

Unknown Speaker 36:30
Now I get it. So you know,

Brandon Handley 36:33
I think about Buddhism to one of the big pieces of that is is the community right so sounds to me like you know that that was the community and that was your space. What what are you replacing that with just just work? Have you been able to replace that sense of community anywhere else?

Unknown Speaker 36:55
Have

Cory Walker 36:57
we looked initially first organizations to get into They’re like, Oh, maybe we can find some nonprofit or volunteer this or that or whatever. And nothing seems to be a good fit. And it also is kind of seriously kind of pushing our organizational buttons, because when you’re part of a nonprofit organization for decades, you just learn the politics and stuff that’s behind the scenes. But what I have found Well, if you got time, I’ll give you a quick example. One of my customers just astounds me, I’m a licensed contractor now. I went to do a bathroom remodel. And the day before they, the I showed up, Dave, for I showed up, they were, they found out that his wife had breast cancer, and she was going to have to have a lump removed. And as a result, we were we were just trying to, you know, remodel her bathroom, but she just opened up and shared all this information with man. So I’m sorry, master bathroom. So she’s in there sitting on the bed, and adjacent room looking in while I’m working and just poring over heart and talking to me. And I’m like, well, she didn’t even know I was a former pastor. And I hadn’t even spoken Difficult as a Christian, but I was just listening to what she said, say and kind of just empathizing and trying to help her. And she seemed very appreciative of it. Well, then she goes in for an MRI right before her surgery to make sure that the cancer about spread and it hadn’t. But they found out that her aorta was enlarged, and she’s gonna have to open heart surgery. And so then she A week later, she goes to meet with a surgeon for open heart surgery. And he says, Well, I don’t think this is even operable. And I’d say you’ve got less than five years. And she’s like, Oh, my gosh, so she comes home and she’s just talking to me about all this stuff. And then I just opened the door for us to have conversation about what it means to be alive and what takes place after you die and how none of us really know exactly what that is. But we have to do whatever it is that helps us find peace in the moment. And then I just was able to share with her that I believe in the divine, and that I believe that good things away for us after the fact because because of his goodness, not because of ours and then just loved on her and told her I was praying for her and master if there’s anything we could do to help, and we walked her dog while she was out having surgery and you know, just trying to be a decent human being, and that seems to be more important to me than ever before, because that’s where I’m meeting people. And that’s where I’m making connection. So,

Brandon Handley 39:18
sure, sure. Sounds to me too, like, focusing on the few right, focusing on the present, focusing on the moment. And not not being concerned with like, having to have like, to being good, decent human being. Yeah, right. And does it does it need to be more, but it sounds like your community is kind of like within those that you everybody’s part of your community?

Cory Walker 39:42
Yeah, I always felt like I was felt a little resentful, in fact, because I had this quote, unquote, calling on my life through your minister and it seemed like everybody else had their regular life. And then, and that was it. And I had my regular life and the special calling, which involved me doing all these extra things to go above and beyond. It’s just like, Oh my gosh, how much do I have to give, but now I’m just like, just being a decent human being and your regular life goes a long, long way. And these people we’ve connected with three or four times a year, we’ll have big parties at our house and just invite all my customers and my wife’s friends and different people from the neighborhood over and just, you know, have a chili feed or have this or that and it’s just incredible that people will be walking around living room. So how do you know Cory and Lisa, talking to each other and ask them questions like, wow, we have either been planted here by somebody else, or we have just dropped into this neighborhood and have started to make a difference in the lives of people in our community. And word is getting around the other day. My wife posted I was doing some work on her own house and she posted a picture of me doing the work on her Facebook feed and someone that’s never met either one of us, but who is in the community and is fairly well known. So as you guys are the new power couple. We’re sure glad to have you. Yes, smile. I was like, I don’t know that. We’re Anything special, but it’s good to see that we’re actually making an impact.

Brandon Handley 41:04
That’s great. And I mean, does it feel nice that you’re kind of making this impact without having to feel this extra pressure to do so?

Cory Walker 41:11
Yeah, totally effect is another friend of mine asked the same question a couple days ago. Is it great to be pastor Corey, it’s great to be Cory and still have pastor Corey and I said absolutely candidate, just so much less pressure and, and not having to pour your resources and time and effort into an organization which may or may not be promoting the things that you believe gives you the time and resources to pour into the people that you come across on a daily basis. We were able to help a single mother who was in terrible needy situation a few weeks ago, and we had the money to do it because we weren’t giving 10% of our income to an organization every every week when we got paid, you know, and and for those who believe that that’s what they’re supposed to do. That’s great. I did it for years and it worked for me then but it no longer does. And now I now I look for opportunities to give To help and to be a decent human being to everybody around So,

Brandon Handley 42:04
right, right, I mean, not just not just to the church, right? Yeah, just one specific organization. It’s another, you know, again, you know, I’ve got a buddy who’s a Buddhist Reverend, and he talks a lot to being able to give charity with wisdom, right? And not just not just do it kind of blindly. And yeah, just kind of give away everything just because, but do it with with a sense of wisdom and a sense of knowing that, you know, what you’re giving to is, is from your heart, not just because back to your point to just check a box, right? So, I love that. So, you know, I’m just kind of chuckling to myself, but you know, you know, let’s, let’s say that, let’s say that you’re creating a church. What would that look like to you? Right? What would it be, you know, if you were to spin off, out of all these other thousands of different organizations You know, and maybe you feel like you’ve been touched in a way that maybe some other people hadn’t been? How would you do differently?

Cory Walker 43:08
Well, great question, in fact, is we’ve asked my wife and I’ve asked ourselves this question many times, because one of the things we did not want to do when we left organized Christianity was just to go create a slightly different version of it, that we thought was a little bit better. We just kind of want to set the whole thing aside and try to live out our faith on a daily basis. That being said, you know, when you get up and speak to people on a weekly basis, or maybe multiple times a week for a half your life and then you stop doing it and the largest group to speak to might be three to five people. And that would be on a rare occasion. There’s always an itch that wants to be scratched, to get up and speak to people again. I’ve toyed with potential for some motivational speaking or maybe even a little bit of stand up on occasion, a local club, one of the local clubs turns out just because I have a gift of gab and I enjoy using it but If I were to create something that looked like a church, it would probably just be more like something where we got together on a monthly basis to just swap stories about what was going on in our lives and the good things that we saw taking place. And maybe, you know, 10 or 15 minutes worth of positive, encouraging instruction, towards just being a better human being, that would be the most organized I’d ever want it to be. I’m not renting or owning a facility or you know how to take up an offering or anybody getting a salary from design or anything like that. Just Just humans who consider themselves part of the same community gathering together to recognize that there’s divine presence in our life. And when we follow it, good things happen for us and the people that were around,

Unknown Speaker 44:47
nice, all of that. So

Brandon Handley 44:50
if somebody out there is feeling this kind of divine pull to break away from a life that they’ve always known, you know, how would you How would you want What would you say to that person? How would you help them through that? Right?

Cory Walker 45:03
I’d say give me a call.

Cory Walker 45:06
Actually, my website has a place where you can connect with me if you’re gonna if you’re on that journey, because you’re going to feel alone. And if you just Google non traditional Christian, you’ll get a bunch of stuff that comes up. But none of us really dealt with how to transition out of organizational Christianity at all, was more like, you know, trendy type churches where they have smoke machines and stuff like that, you know, or rock and roll music or whatever, you know, wasn’t really more along the lines of, Hey, I don’t really want to sit in a church on Sunday mornings anymore. And it, you know, I guess, effect is I have several friends who are life coaches, and I’ve done a little bit of myself and I thought on a couple occasions, maybe down the road, what I need to do is make myself available as a spiritual coach to people who are transitioning away from traditional forms of a face into more of a daily applicational living and just Help them walk the journey as someone who’s just maybe a step or two ahead of them down the path somewhere path.

Unknown Speaker 46:05
Yeah, no, I

Brandon Handley 46:06
love that. Right. Listen, as you said earlier, we don’t know how this thing ends, right? We don’t know what’s on the other side. But what we do know is that today, if we’re living in accordance to living from our heart, if we’re doing what we feel is as good as it can be, you know, then every day you can theoretically you could be in heaven, right? Every day you can live a life that is giving and is the spiritual way. But there could be someone who doesn’t know what it means to live life as worship right. My niggas got something you were saying earlier right? live every day so it was the you know, the Lord say and again, you know, listen, I think that there’s bristles right like, you know, from for people, you say, God, they’re like, Oh, no,

Cory Walker 46:56
there goes yeah.

Cory Walker 46:58
loaded, loaded term. But for

Brandon Handley 47:00
even for me, right, I still I still toy with it mentally. You know, when I write the word God, I do little g just because I, I it’s just, it’s just the whole concept, right there’s there’s a wall in my mind with big G, right, but there’s no wall in my mind with universal or creative energies, all these other things, these are all ones that are free flowing, that mean the same thing.

Unknown Speaker 47:26
Right? To me.

Brandon Handley 47:28
And it’s easier for me to accept it right. So I think that you know, just just just as with you, like, if somebody were on this path, and they were coming out of a traditional church that would be easy for them to gravitate towards you, right? Because you’re got that experience. Whereas like, if it was somebody who’s coming onto this path that was just kind of coming onto this path. That wasn’t such a big g kind of guy, right? Then it might be somebody like me, right, where he’s like, Listen, we’re going to talk in Universal we’re going to talk all these other things, but

Cory Walker 47:56
yeah,

Brandon Handley 47:58
I love I love what you’re doing. There. That I think that that’s, you know, wonderful because they need that right. And here’s, here’s one of the things that I was saying too is is of with, with your, with the Bible with a faith with religion, it’s kind of like a framework for the space that you’ve gotten into is that you know, how, what is your What is your concept or idea that like as as it being the framework, not necessarily the whole building and structure and everything that it needs to be.

Cory Walker 48:29
Yeah, that’s a good way that’s a good way to look at it. I think it’s the skeletal structure and you put the meat in the bones on after the fact you know, it’s not the bumps and beaten in the skin on after the fact you get to build out your faith in the way that you that you can feel good about. Now, I’ve never believed spirituality was just all about feeling good. But the bottom line is, you need to be able I need to be able to live in a way that’s congruent with what I believe and if my beliefs are such that they’re preventing me from Living honestly, with my heart, then I’m just not in a very good place. And so, you know, I think religion is a good place and, and traditional forms of religion are a good place for to give structure for people who feel like they just be lost out there on their own if they didn’t have, you know, some guidance or some set of this or that, to help them down the path. And and I respect that. And one of the things that we believe over lifetime believe when we first stepped out of out of traditional Christianity was that it’s every individual’s responsibility and privilege to figure out what their faith is supposed to look like for them, instead of telling someone Well, you shouldn’t go to church, you know, I’m going to say, Hey, if you’re finding benefit in that, and I think my book reflected that in a couple ways, if you’re, if you’re finding benefit and being a part of an ongoing church, then then do so but if it’s not long, it’s no longer working for you. Don’t be afraid to step away and I just felt like that makes a lot more sense. than the one size fits all, you know, hey, let’s all jennea flex every Sunday or let’s all take communion on the first Monday, first Sunday of the month, or let’s all do this.

Cory Walker 50:10
To me, it just wasn’t it wasn’t working anymore.

Brandon Handley 50:12
Now I get it. I get it. Do you see yourself ever going back into it?

Cory Walker 50:16
Yeah, you know, my best friend. His name’s Jeremy. I think you’ve met him before. But he says. He says, Don’t you wish we could just go back to being good Methodist. Now neither one of us have been. Neither one of us have ever been Methodist. But the sentiment is Wouldn’t it be so much easier not to ask the deeper questions and to follow your heart and just do what you’re told. Just to show up once a once a month or twice a month and show some change in the offering and feel good about checking the boxes. Sure, when neither of us. Neither my wife or I really feel like we could ever take that journey back. There may be some phenomenal church out there that teaches the love of Christ and the grace of Christ without all the shoulds and this open to anybody who wants to come that we just haven’t discussed Get but certainly in our region. To my knowledge, it doesn’t exist. And know, if it does, I’ll ask, I’ll ask the divine Lord of the universe to bring it and drop it in my lap. So that all is there. And it does and I’ll be happy to walk through the door

Brandon Handley 51:15
a little bit. What um, you know, I was like trying to find out some different books or whatnot, you said you went through like 66 books as you were kind of gone through going through, you know, the, the E reading phase, what are what are some that like a really kind of revolutionized your way of thinking as it comes all this stuff?

Cory Walker 51:36
Well, you know, if you’re coming at it from a Christian standpoint, there’s couple good books, one of them’s called organic church. I can’t think of the author right now that is well known. And it just talks about some of the stuff I’ve talked about here today, about how it’s supposed to be an organism that’s supposed to grow on its own. And it’s supposed to be a living, breathing thing that’s made up of people not organ organization. The other one was called patient Christianity, it was a great book. And it talks, it traces all the doctrines that we hold dear today, back to in many cases, their pagan roots and the sense that they’re not, not of God, if you will, not biblical roots, but just traditional roots that go to different different types of belief systems all over the world. And so don’t get so hung up on whether something is biblical or not, you know, because most of what we do in our Sunday morning services isn’t from the Bible, it’s just things that are developed over 2000 years worth of religion so but you know, on the non Christian, if you will side outside of the mainstream, I really love the books like the Four Agreements and, you know, books that just, you know, I’m reading a lot of stuff. Like recently we’ve been rereading for third or fourth time then Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey. You know, just a lot of the lot of the stuff that for years in church, we were told not to read because you’re supposed to read Christian stuff, but yet every time I read the stuff that’s not Christian stuff, because by training of my upbringing, I’m seeing all the biblical truth that’s present in the non Christian stuff. Show goes goes back to that the divine wanting us to have truth bad enough, he’s willing to put it wherever he has to, in order to get it into our hands.

Brandon Handley 53:13
Right. I mean, that’s the whole, you know, cast it was a casting pearls before the swine, right? Like, I’m not saying that though, there’s always going to be this wine that doesn’t understand or appreciate the pearl. Right, versus you know, somebody else is looking for those exceptional pieces wherever they go. Yeah, that’s kind of, you know, so I’m hearing a little bit. So I’m curious there too. You know, I would hear stories about like paganism and the story of the cross in Christianity. I’m curious, did the pagan Christianity book did it talk to that at all?

Cory Walker 53:45
Well, the cross it didn’t specifically mention the cross. But we do know from historical documents that the cross was the form of capital punishment that you know, the Romans Jews and the Romans were occupying Israel at the time so Jesus would have died on a cross Because of, because that’s the way that they killed people back then. So that, that, that from what we can tell is accurate, but there’s just so many like even, you know, many of the end just things are so interwoven together and we don’t even recognize it. And I’m just going off of memory. But like even the you know, like today when we give toasts, maybe at a wedding or at a party, and someone raises their cup and gives a toast to somebody, it’s traced back to Communion within Christianity, where Jesus took the cup and said, This is my body is broken for you, as often, you know, drink this as often as you as often as you drink this, remember me. And so a lot of the things that are interwoven throughout our, throughout our culture in our society, can can come from some Christian stuff, and then a lot of the things that we have in Christianity came right out of very non Christian, what we would call pagan societal practices, just as a result of you know, having As the message of Christ spread throughout the world, it would be in and spread into different cultures than it was originally brought to. And result, different things would be adopted. And so that is a great little book called pagan Christianity. And it’s a, it’s a good read. So

Brandon Handley 55:16
thanks for sharing that. And like you’re saying, it’s really interesting to see where something starts and where it ends up. Right? How did it start? And where is it showing up in different spaces in our lives? So thank you. Thanks, man. You know, I think it’s been a lot of fun. I think I really definitely enjoyed kind of going through. For me, Pentecostal stuff was really kind of eye opening, sharing those gifts was also something to me that I wasn’t aware of. Right. So I think that there’s definitely stuff within, you know, Christianity within the scriptures that can really speak and rang true to some people are afraid to go into because of the organizational stuff because of some of the horror stories because of like, you know, you know, like, just your, they don’t want to go in and check off all these boxes, but they do. Do want, they do want to feel, quote unquote closer to God. Right.

Unknown Speaker 56:04
Yeah, totally. And and so, you know,

Brandon Handley 56:08
I think that that’s available to anyone like you’re saying, just kind of go out and seek it for yourself right and see, can you sell fine, right? Whatever. Whatever whatever you’re seeking is seeking you all that jazz. But Corey, thank you so much again for hopping on today. Where should I send somebody who’s going to come? Look for Corey Walker,

Cory Walker 56:29
probably the easiest way is to go through my website and that’s church Been there, done that calm, church, been there done that calm. And while I certainly still believe in the church, I just believe it’s who we are. A church attendance is something I no longer do. So that’s why we named a website that the web the book is available for free download there. And there’s ways to contact me through there if you’re wanting to just somebody to talk to or if you’re wanting to develop an ongoing friendship or relationship you know, that’s the joy of the internet. Now we can find people, even though we may be in the minority We can find people from all over the world that we can connect with who are thinking and feeling the same things.

Unknown Speaker 57:06
Now 100% So, let’s say you started Coreys spiritual coaching today what what Who do you feel like would be your ideal client?

Cory Walker 57:18
Um, you know, people who definitely people who grew up in the Christian faith, but who are seeking who seeks to find benefit in it and or they just can’t, they can’t live with some of the inconsistency is that they’re finding and the faith and instead of getting dumping God all together, if you will, they can find an alternative way to express their fate without having to have the religious aspect of it. That’s probably my ideal

Unknown Speaker 57:45
client. Awesome. Well, guys, if that’s you reach out to Cory.

Cory Walker 57:50
Thanks, Cory. thank thank you so much. Have a good day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Jeremy Snowden

Brandon Handley 0:00
4321 Hey there podcast land thanks for tuning in. We are taking another hit a spiritual dope and today I’ve got Jeremy snowed and joining me He is a dad, a granddad friend and men’s mentor. He finds fulfillment being a resource a community connector. He runs a men’s growth and development group Hero’s Journey men’s online discussion circle, and host a biannual man’s three days meetup. He spends his free time discovering life hacks, physical movement and mindfulness practices. Jeremy, thanks for joining me today. What’s going on? What’s up?

Jeremy Snowden 0:38
What’s up? Thanks so much for the invitation, man. Yeah,

Brandon Handley 0:41
yeah, I don’t it was like, it was kind of like, it was a no brainer. You know, it was like, you know, we we’ve crossed paths, Facebook paths so many times, right. When I spun this up, I was like, you won’t point so just you’re kind of like a brother, brother from another mother right type of thing. Cuz, like, I think we’re the same people. Right. Right. And and and the more we have these conversations, the more we kind of find that that’s true. You and I were just talking before this about a mutual, you know, mentor that we found online. Eddie Bryant, right, who’s doing who’s doing some stuff. And you mentioned I just discovered on the week before, so I was like, this is just, yeah, it’s fun. It’s fun. And it’s funny. So before we even get started, man, so before we even get started, I feel like I feel like we’re kind of like, we’re conduits for the creative energies forces in the universe, right? Yeah. And we’re put together right now on this podcast, to speak to somebody. Right? And somebody needs to hear this, and it needs to come from you. What is it?

Unknown Speaker 1:51
Man?

Jeremy Snowden 1:52
Okay, so Wow, right on the spot, did you Okay, so

I think more than anything else

For me if I was if I was looking at the person that needs to hear this you are a human being not a human doing you know there’s more to you than you know that you’re at then you’re aware of

and just fully embody yourself No

I think that would be a good

Brandon Handley 2:24
I love it. I love it man right i mean you’re you’re you’re a human being not a human doing we get so caught up. Gosh, reactivity, right all the activity although RUN RUN, RUN doo doo doo I got to be productive man. If I’m not productive, they’re gonna kick me off the team.

Jeremy Snowden 2:42
Right? The pressure and the stress? Yeah,

Brandon Handley 2:45
yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So I love it. I love it. You’re a human being.

Unknown Speaker 2:51
And I think the other thing is,

Brandon Handley 2:53
knowing yourself right? And when you get into this kind of the spiritual realm and And you’re you’re getting into all these different involve with all these different groups. Excuse me. And these conversations, the word self can take on a number of connotations, right? Come on, what do you got? So tell me what you know. So, I’ll give you an example of something that I saw this morning. And it actually had to do kind of like Maslow’s law, right? hierarchy of needs. And when you get to the top there, it’s self expression, self actualization. Ah, true. So, I mean, you know, if I asked you what that meant to you to basically that’s the pinnacle, self expression, Self Realization, what does that mean? Right?

Jeremy Snowden 3:42
Wow, that’s deep. For me, I guess it is finding experiences where I can be the observer, so that I can see myself clearly, you know, so depression in a wave of just that one the day that you just don’t want to get out of That it just feels like your blanket is concrete, you know? And you can’t explain it or anything. And so I have to, I call it father myself or, you know, work within my higher self, if you will. And almost to put my hand on my shoulder, if you will, and say, Hey, I know what you’re feeling. Yeah. It’s almost like it’s two separate people or, you know, like my tradition. It’s you know, you’re a tripartite three part being spirit soul body, you have a spirit, you know, or I’m sorry, you are spirit you live in, you know, you have a soul you live in a body, you know, and now it seems like it’s probably more complex and yet more simple. It’s just but at any point, it’s just seeing myself in those feelings, I can feel this I’m not those feelings. Right. But I you know, I can resonate with those feelings. Who’s the it does that that’s me. You know, you talk to yourself. A couple of days ago, I was like, let’s have pizza and I was like, Who’s let’s

Brandon Handley 5:06
good idea for us to go get these things together. And that’s great though I was just I was just listening to a book this morning actually. It’s called mastering your emotions and the exercises in there is is what you just talked about, right? One of those is very powerful exercise you you see you see this observer exercise actually happen a

Unknown Speaker 5:26
lot in NLP, right? I’m not

Brandon Handley 5:29
sure yet, right. So it’s the same thing you you, you You see, first of all, you’re already here right? But if you can remove yourself one or two or three times and see that situation just like you said, you know you’re in that better fathering yourself. I love that because you know, as a father, you know what that means by you. Put your hand on on your shoulder, and you’re going to walk yourself out there with comfort and care and say, Hey, Paul, we got this we got right. And we’re gonna go face this, whatever it is. Absolutely. Right. Yeah, love that the concrete blanket man that made me feel I felt it. I felt that corps right. Yeah, man. So, you know, my tradition is what what is your tradition? Because you said my in my tradition,

Jeremy Snowden 6:11
right? My historically if you will, first time I make the distinction between religion and spirituality, right. I’m not religious, I’m spiritual.

Brandon Handley 6:20
Yeah, show Yeah.

Jeremy Snowden 6:21
Right. Yeah. But at the same time, it was, you know, growing up in up drew up in a Christian environment, if you will, okay. And everything was about hierarchies, structures and pecking orders. It just life in general. You know, like, who makes the most money who’s the cutest who’s the tallest, the smartest, prettiest? Sure. Um, you know, and just that, that linear thinking like that. And so, for me, breaking out of that, I don’t know if this is the proper time to talk about that or not, but basically just I was, you know, a very Launch Bible believer in you know, born again Christian you know for quite some time and while I do admire and respect a lot of my, a lot of my time there and of course my friends and my you know who become your, your family that you choose, you know? Sure it’s I can see it now and you know having the whole dark night of the soul or nights or months you know. Right So, but in that I can see the need for that as a part of part of my life. So that was my background. Sure.

Brandon Handley 7:31
Yeah. It’s funny you say that right? Like I’m I’m not religious, but I am spiritual and I think that a lot of people get that confused. I don’t have a religion. Yeah. But I am spiritual right because I think that you know, you have a religion you’re not you are not religious you have it right. Like, that’s your background and your your kind of upbringing and, and, and, you know, the path that you follow, and it’s funny that you bring up you know, we we have Eddie Bryan and In common a couple weeks ago like i said i was first I listened to him but you know there’s some he talks about Vedanta and Hinduism right and he talks about all the different paths of Hinduism and right in the end he does it sooner or later you just got to bet on one line later just got it you got it you got a bet on one Yeah. Oh it because otherwise you’re just always kind of popping around Yeah. And it It’s funny how I landed on the just pick one theory or idea and I got that through the science of getting rich Wallace D wattles. Right I’ve never read that book. I mean, it’s it’s my all time it’s in my top five man it’s such a great book. But it’s like just follow just read this one book and don’t read any don’t pay attention to anything else for like until you This is part of your soul,

Unknown Speaker 8:54
bro.

Brandon Handley 8:56
I’m so sorry to dive down in that right so okay. So you’re running the men’s group. Let’s give a little more background journey man like, I mean, let’s let’s do this first, I always like to talk about the front end of it, you know, what is it you’re doing? Tell us about? Tell us about your tell us about the men’s group, right? The hero’s journey, men’s online discussion circle, right? Like, how did that get started? And what’s going on?

Jeremy Snowden 9:21
Yeah, so almost two years, well,

longer than two years ago, I connected with some guys and some Facebook groups. And I was just blown away to see what the same questions over and over and over again. You know, my wife cheated on me, you know, or my wife left me or my girlfriend, you know, yada, yada. Or we can’t give a lot we can never, you know, come to a conclusion on anything or whatever. Right? And so I figured, you know, I’m throwing my opinion in this whole thing, just to see what happens to kind of see where I’m at with my peers. You know, where are we at? You guys don’t know me from Adam. I don’t know you from Adam. And you. It’s almost like my friend of mine, Andy. You might No to he and he’s just he just trolls your stuff because he thinks you’re cool. You know? We can’t is it silly?

Brandon Handley 10:07
Yeah, yes. No, he’s funny though. So he doesn’t get a choice. Great troll. Yeah.

Jeremy Snowden 10:12
And he’s like, and he’s sort of my, my spiritual project, you know, to get him to start walking along that

Brandon Handley 10:20
path. Don’t go to the dark side.

Jeremy Snowden 10:22
Right and he’s he’s doing everything he can to, you know, push, push it up, push me off it but Anyway, I digress. But he says, You know, I said something about, you know, just try not to read the comments right about now with everything heated up. You read people’s comments, and you’re just like, oh, but he retorted and said that it’s all about the comments. And really, that’s that’s that’s community right there. Yeah, you can actually trace your community within those comments. You know, CS Lewis said it this way, and I’ll get off my soapbox. He said, I mean,

Brandon Handley 10:55
this is immunity. That’s exactly what this is the soapbox, bro. That’s why we’re here. All right. All right.

Jeremy Snowden 11:02
community doesn’t happen until someone else says YouTube. Mm hmm. You know, and so I created an online community of people that like, we have the same kind of challenges, you know, a lot of them are still married or, or, you know, some art, you know, and the thing that we do is we use the book as an excuse a friend of mine, Stan, you can you might know him as well. Stan, Michael, he, he wants to talk to me about the law of the third’s, it’s very similar to this mode to Brandon is like, you know, I have this light ring. I don’t know if you have a light rain, but I kind of see that as my vortex. You know, I mean, like, it’s, it’s almost like, if we were to practice you know, like all of the different magical traditions, if you will, where you could look through water and see spirit on the other side. That’s what we’re

Brandon Handley 11:56
doing. You know, we’re ending the evil stepmother and Mirror mirror on the wall. fairest of them all right. I mean, come on somebody that stops everywhere, right? Like, here’s the thing, like, here’s the thing is what’s so great about like this space is like, once you realize you tripped over into it, you’re like, Oh, it’s everywhere. Everybody’s been trying to tell me my entire life.

Jeremy Snowden 12:16
Come on. Right? Right on your face, right?

Brandon Handley 12:20
Mm hmm. I mean, we’ll cliches and you know, stuff. Your parents told you that you said, Nah, shut up. Stop. You’re crazy. Don’t talk to my friends. Right? It’s everywhere. I was I was on the plane, coming back from Denver. And I was watching the Madeline L’Engle movie with Oprah in it. A stitch in time, A Wrinkle in Time, Wrinkle in Time, man. And it was everything you and I are about and I was like, I was taking notes like furious. I was like, oh, brah Oh, Oprah, not again, more Oprah right um, Mirror mirror on the wall. Right, just like yeah, that’s the vortex that’s looking looking, looking looking. piercing the veil, right?

Jeremy Snowden 13:06
Yes. I’m

Brandon Handley 13:09
with you. Yeah, tell me more. So Hero’s Journey hero’s journey. Tell us all Batman.

Jeremy Snowden 13:14
So it’s very similar, right? You could see these different themes in everybody’s lives. We’re all living the same life.

Brandon Handley 13:21
Suddenly, let’s talk about the things right, let’s talk about let’s talk about the hero’s journey. Because if you’re not familiar with it, who’s it come from?

Jeremy Snowden 13:31
Joseph Campbell, is a mythologist very wise man who did research to be able to see these common themes and all stories Star Wars, right? Um,

Brandon Handley 13:45
gosh, went nuts. Oh, so if is he recently like that went went went when was he? You know, I do know some history on him. But I you know, I’m not this is not a test. But I want I want I want people to hear from you. I was like,

Unknown Speaker 14:00
No, kind of monopoly,

Jeremy Snowden 14:02
probably circa and I can look it up too.

But probably circa 1950s around that time, I guess

Brandon Handley 14:09
so he predates he predates Star Wars and all that

Jeremy Snowden 14:13
stuff, right? For sure. For sure. And yeah, just pulling him up here just as a nerd

Brandon Handley 14:18
with rain. Sure, man. So, before,

Jeremy Snowden 14:21
right so yeah, he was born. Right so

1904 so in died 1987 So, yeah, he was an inspiration to Steve Lucas. Is that right? I’m not a big Star Wars fan but Lucas. Lucas right, George There it goes. I think he’s towards. I’m showing my own coolness right now to some of your audience. Yeah, but anyway, um, he just really, you know, well, it says he was influenced, for instance by Nisha Christian Judy Krishnamurti. Carl Jung. I mean, just Schopenhauer. I mean, like he basically canonized The concept of you know that the departure, the initiation of the hero, and the return, you know, and with each and there’s got subsections and all that you could read on it, of course online. But it’s just that we have the same story except I think in my mind’s eye, I’m thinking what you talked about Maslow’s hierarchy of needs kind of the same thing. You know, I’m saying there’s, there’s levels to this shit.

Brandon Handley 15:25
Right, right, right, though. Absolutely.

Jeremy Snowden 15:27
And unfortunately, we talked about it earlier, maybe some people this round just don’t want to get it.

Brandon Handley 15:32
Well, there’s a there’s a section in the story, right is some people reject the hero’s call, right? Because the beginning there, right? is is is okay. And and here’s, you know, if you want my take on it, which you’re not asking for, but I’ll give it to you. Ain’t on me. Right. So we’ve got the hero’s journey. Then there’s, there’s the call of the hero, right? That’s when you’re when you and I are in this journey, we felt something I mean, so overwhelming that if you didn’t do it, something inside you died. Yeah. Right if you don’t and that’s so that’s the that’s the hero’s call, right? The hero’s call is, is there’s something

Unknown Speaker 16:17
within me that if I don’t share it,

Brandon Handley 16:21
if I don’t help to give this away

Unknown Speaker 16:24
within my lifetime I may as well stop now. Right? Yeah.

Brandon Handley 16:29
So you feel that and then you have a couple opportunities to say Nah, fuck that I’m gonna go have a beer. Right? Right and so you can sub you can sub do that in a number of ways. And and I’m not sure if you ever watched the series on Netflix it’s called the umbrella factory. And and what I realized by watching the umbrella factory was there’s one girl on there I’m not not to give away the whole plot, but like she was subdued her entire life from her innate superpowers. By medication, right Though, you know, to what where I’m getting there is is like a religion, ad. You know, people who my grandmother was diagnosed as schizophrenic now, we didn’t have like we weren’t super close, but the question begs to be answered. What’s your medium? Yeah, right. Right. And and there wasn’t, there wasn’t the space in the place, then that we’ve got now available to allow for that. Yeah, to explore that, which is I love where we are now. So, to me, the hero’s call is just that right? There is something within you, right? And if you if you don’t answer that, you’ve got to suppress it. And that’s when you start to kind of each time because it’s going to be it’s going to come more than once. It’s gonna keep coming right there every, every moment in your life is kind of an opportunity for that hero’s call, right? Yeah. And if you don’t answer that You’re gonna wither away and die. Yeah. Yeah, that’s my take on it.

Jeremy Snowden 18:04
What do I think that’s wonderful man, that’s, that’s really good. I love this volley. Plain and simple is because that’s how I grow. You know, for the longest I looked around to people that were in suits on Sunday morning, and it’s like, you guys can’t bring the fire here What’s going on? You know, and I was like, there’s got to be more. And it’s not that they weren’t good people. It’s just that sometimes when we put constraints on our, our faith or our religion, whatever it is, right, it’s, it’s we kind of like it’s like, I used to lead worship, you know, so and I love worship music. But it was like, only part of the dance and when I when I when I stepped down from that, if you will, and began to sit down on my back porch, right, and, you know, dance in front of the moon. Nobody else is around. It’s just me and God. So everything outside of my body is dancing with me. It felt more authentic. Then, you know, playing and although I still play music I still love. I still love worship music but it seemed that I was, you know, we could we following a rigid tradition didn’t allow me or spirit for me to be able to just blossom it just kept me in this kind of in a confined space so sure, sure kind

Brandon Handley 19:21
of like kind of like I mean, if you think about a tangle of roots and in a confined space in a box, right, like I mean, there’s just

Unknown Speaker 19:29
nowhere to go.

Brandon Handley 19:30
Yeah, okay. Well, I mean, it’s fair, but I’m just curious too, because all right, look, you’ve got this group you’re doing you’re and you’re and you’re walking them through, like the hero’s journey, right? So I stopped everybody here for a second at, you know, rejecting the call. So what happens when you answered a call is you know, take me there. Right?

Jeremy Snowden 19:48
Well, I mean, first off, and I know this different for everybody. I mean, number one is when i don’t know i don’t get probably the same thing. Granted, it’s like even the cashier will start telling me about it. Marriage, you know, I’m saying and it’s so it’s like you know, I gotta also safeguard my energy at the same time but it’s like working with guys that are like somes kind of like a little off and I need some just help. What they really need is just somebody to walk with them that second phase right, which is the initiation right percent, right. So it’s, it’s and it’s it’s Simba or I’m sorry. It’s symbols friends. Timonium, Puma. Yeah. Cool.

Brandon Handley 20:30
Right. So now saying that the other day I don’t even care. No.

Jeremy Snowden 20:34
Yeah. And then you have her freaky, right, the monkey that shows the bigger picture, if you will, right. And then the mentor Right, so the mystic, mystical mentor. There you go. And that’s where I mean again, that the hero’s journey arc works Yoda all stories, right. There you go. Right. Go. So walking with them is it for me at least it’s as much as just for saying I see you. Yeah, I see you. And he’s like, looking at you now. Right? You’ve done it.

Unknown Speaker 21:06
I’ll tell you

Brandon Handley 21:08
that, that that saves me. when when when, you know, when that happened to me, I was like something was a little off. And I had to reach out to, you know, three, three people, three different people. And I was like,

Unknown Speaker 21:21
I don’t know what’s going on. Yeah.

Brandon Handley 21:24
I’m not losing my shit, but I’m not quite right. I just thought I’d let you guys know. Right? And at same time also reached out to a Buddhist Reverend friend, right? I said, Hey, here’s what I’m feeling. And he goes, you’re cool. I was like, working with them. Right. But to your point, this is a little over three years ago. The I had the exact same feeling of, hey, look, I want to be the greeter. Right? Kind of like a scarecrow in The Wizard of Oz.

Unknown Speaker 21:58
Right. Yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 22:00
We’re gonna cross paths you’re gonna cross paths or paths are gonna interweave. You’re on the way to Emerald City. I’m sure I’ll walk along with you for a while.

Jeremy Snowden 22:08
We’re off to see the wizard. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah,

Brandon Handley 22:11
yeah, so exactly the same. Yeah. Tell me more.

Jeremy Snowden 22:14
Yeah. So a lot of the times, it’s, it’s a matter to, I mean, it’s just us watching them as kids, we had invisible friends. Right. And then we’re told, well, that’s stupid, you know, but I think that they serve whether they were real, you know, if you can, if you if you accept, you know, spirits or demons or whatever, if you go along that track are whether they are just an aspect or element of our own spirit or mind. You know, however you see it, they serve a purpose, you know, and one of those is to, to watch, like, you know, again, is my tradition. It’s like, there are such things, it’s watchers, right? Have you noticed a lot of paintings that people do when they’re shrooms are a plant medicine. There’s a lot of eyes around the eyes have it? Sure. So, you know, sometimes people just need you to be their spotter, you know, as they’re going through that stuff. You don’t need to have.

Brandon Handley 23:15
Yeah, you listen, you Listen, don’t trip by yourself on the first time, right? Like everybody knows that. I’m just saying, right? Like, it’s, it’s, it’s very similar though, right? Like, you know, you want to be in a safe place and especially when you’re in a vulnerable condition such as an awakening or such as like, you know, especially look men are just as vulnerable as anybody else. I I believe, more so because if they’re going through the, you know, the call to hero, right. And they don’t know where to turn. Most of us haven’t been prepared for this. Yes. Right or don’t recognize, right don’t recognize that they’ve been prepared for now because I’ll I would also say that due to the Your religion, you were able to put things into some kind of framework. You’re like, you know what, holy shit. there’s a there’s a story in the Bible that lines up to the scene that I’m going through right now, what was the outcome? And you could you can say in your mind, right, this was the outcome. What does that outcome really mean, though? Because that outcome no longer is, is this kind of this story, right? No, this is no longer like, you know, you know, the walls of Jericho, just falling down what, you know, what was that story? If I could put that into modern language, right, I circled it, you know, XYZ times. And, you know, is that a story of patience and perseverance of you know, and that’s what this really meant, right? And that’s what I’m experiencing. Sure. Is, did you have that? You know, is that how you kind of translated your, is that what made it easier for you or was it is it a journey that kind of like really set the tone for you?

Jeremy Snowden 24:56
Right, right. Well, it was, I guess, It was a mixture of both. So as you were sharing, I was like, dude, I’m I’m letting him go, because this is really this is solid meat here. This is about where I’m at. So it came to a point where and I won’t go into that on the just because for time sake, but, you know, I was going through my dark night of the soul if you will season right. And I just realized I need to zoom up a little further and not just assume that text, no offense to anybody else, any text. Okay, so across the board for me, if it does not resonate with my heart, I just can’t receive it. Right. Right. So if I can apply it because I think it’s wholesome, right? I mean, I All scripture is given for admiration and for admonition and examples for us and got out and I believe that they’re good. They’re good stories. Some of them don’t apply the way that I was told they applied. And so I have to, you know, observe them as the self Right, yeah. As it’s just like, you know, looking at your kids candy, I hate to, you know, make the word candy, you know, I’m saying but it’s like, you know, when you’re at Halloween, you’re just checking get your, you know, you get your fill of Reese’s Pieces that

Brandon Handley 26:14
you find those passwords don’t need all those candy.

Jeremy Snowden 26:18
But, you know, I had to I had to scrutinize each thoughts, you know, of any any text. So that’s why I’m listening to, you know, Edwin Bryant right now. And, you know, the yoga sutras of Patanjali. It’s because there are words there. They’re, what three 5000 years old. And he is explaining them and I even have to scrutinize him for myself for my own personal self right now. Not out loud, right? I’m

Brandon Handley 26:48
good.

Jeremy Snowden 26:49
All right, all the greats I don’t I just, I’ve come here on the same dispensation and it’s my responsibility to unpack it. You know, there’s a difference. I put it this way. There’s a difference. belief and faith, right?

And it’s like, yeah, was that media?

Yeah. So like faith is all scripture calls faith substance. Right? It’s a substance. Okay? Right. Whereas belief seems to me to be just an ideology, you know, and it’s like, sometimes we mistake I have in the past mistakes as interchangeable. But then when my ideology falls apart, that’s when your faith has to come alive. So that’s what happened. Okay, so when, when that happened, because of the dark night of the soul, right, I decided to investigate and search things to see if they’re actually what they really are for, for my own selves.

Brandon Handley 27:43
And describe, like dark night, a soul a little bit. So for somebody that, you know, that feels like they’ve been through it, or you know, or what does it mean to you because I think that that has a different meaning to people to

Unknown Speaker 27:55
write.

Jeremy Snowden 27:58
I think it’s part of this The Hero’s Journey story arc, if you will, in the dragons, the the bankruptcy, the divorce the, you know, the difference stimuluses that caused the response in you? Is it parallelisation? Like, I’ve been there, like, you know, where you’re just paralyzed, you don’t know what to do. It was Wednesday, like, a day ago, and now it’s, you know, Sunday morning or whatever, you know, you just kind of lose track of everything. It’s best. That’s my own personal experience. I don’t really cry a lot. It’s not.

Brandon Handley 28:31
I mean, is it like a depression point? Is it a focal point? Do you have to kind of hit?

Jeremy Snowden 28:38
Okay, so, very similar to what you said. It’s like, Is there a diagnosis for it? That is actually right. Or do we just what is what we call depression? Right? Yeah.

Is it? Is that

Unknown Speaker 28:54
the call? Sure you

Jeremy Snowden 28:57
believe so. You know, think it’s thick. Right, and they have to withdraw themselves and and heal themselves or not you know and so you know I kind of think that ladder it’s yeah I think you’re right my mom actually was kids phrenic and we her and I lived with her demons you know as her behavior is powerful

Brandon Handley 29:21
I mean how do you look at that now?

Jeremy Snowden 29:25
Yeah so i i i don’t know in terms of we’ve I guess my sisters and I’ve we’ve we’ve had that those conversations is a demon is a devils that are like literal doubles. Is it just the serotonin synaptic gaps and durose transmitters that blah blah, you know, misfire Listen, listen to I mean, there’s always there’s always a science psychology about it, right? Like I’m right. And that’s, that’s frustrating, right? Because you can science away just about anything you want. Right?

Brandon Handley 29:56
Let’s talk about it from let’s talk about it from just your You know, your own life experience perception, your own human words? Know what’s out. You know, if you’re looking at that right now, like I said about my grandmother does that, you know, all right, well, Was she a medium? Was there something was she in contact when you got plenty of people that say I talk to angels, you know, is there something trying to communicate through her and it was a matter of if she had had the right teacher or teaching. It could have been just tremendous power that could have brought good into the world.

Unknown Speaker 30:31
Sure.

Jeremy Snowden 30:33
Isn’t that crazy, too? And could it be I mean, and rest are soul. It could it be that she denied the call?

Brandon Handley 30:42
Don’t so that’s the thing, right? If you don’t, if you’re not,

Unknown Speaker 30:46
so, for me, a lot of this is already like my first language.

Brandon Handley 30:54
I was raised this way like my mother was I was born out in San Francisco. My mom was like, I mean I picked up the exact same eaching book. She got like, I’m stupid, retarded. Like, I mean, everything she ever said is like, I’m like, Oh my gosh, she was right. Right. and and, and and like, I mean, yeah, you know, I brought up Alan Watts with her and she’s like, Oh yeah, I remember seeing him in San Francisco, Alan. Know. And so, so when I experienced all this stuff, I kind of had a background in it right. I was like,

Jeremy Snowden 31:29
nice. It was almost like I’m

Brandon Handley 31:34
falling into like, down comforters. Wow, you were just like beautiful gowns. You know, like, wow, I was like, Man, this is a great place to be. Yeah. How can I explain to everybody else where I’m at, right like, I mean, and and do it in a way and that’s part about this podcast, right? How can you know a big part of it’s okay, great. It’s cool. You feel that way, but How can you apply that in? Yeah, practicality, right? And so, so you’re doing that in your group, right? you’re grabbing these men. And you’re saying, All right, we’re cool here. This is a safe space. Here’s what you’re going through, and you’re using the hero’s journey to walk them along the journey. Right?

Jeremy Snowden 32:19
So through the challenges of everyday life through divorce or whatever. And also like, like, in my case, for instance, which in the hero’s journey Ark, my dragon was hell. I mean, Holy moly, right. I mean, like, if I’m wrong, I can get a, you know, you know, don’t collect $200 go directly to hell, you know, find stamped and it’s your own. It’s your own damn fault, Jeremy, because I’m now seeking things or allowing things or understanding things that are contrary to my upbringing, if you will. So that was my that was that was that I was just so afraid. You know what What people are gonna think, you know, how people are gonna act toward me, now that I’m able to hold space for a wizard, if I wanted to, you know, I’m saying, you know, or somebody else, it’s all welcome here.

Brandon Handley 33:11
Sorry. I’m sure the reference behind that. I don’t even know, man, I’m just you know, let’s just like it’s just like, hey, like, you know, all are welcome. Nobody’s kind of kept out. Right. And so that’s kind of what you were you’re talking about. Right?

Jeremy Snowden 33:25
Right. But it was because I hit that firewall and push through it, you know, and what if I can give? Can I give a brief example, dude? Yeah, absolutely. Please do. So a couple of years ago, I did plant medicine over at a Native American church. Right. Okay. And I was like, for sure. This is the thing that sends you to hell

Brandon Handley 33:45
right here, for sure. Was that the first time you’ve ever done plant medicine? Yes. Yeah. Okay. What is plant medicine?

Jeremy Snowden 33:53
Well, I guess.

I think I guess that’s not exactly true, but From a vantage point of hallucinogenic as a medicinal

Brandon Handley 34:04
right for medicinal purposes well yeah as originally intended

Jeremy Snowden 34:09
one could argue that marijuana is plant medicine. Sure. Absolutely. Talking about that about and I westca no it’s the it’s the South American route that is extracted created into a tea you drink it shit yourself, etc etc.

Brandon Handley 34:24
There’s nowhere to go a little declare. Gives you as

Jeremy Snowden 34:29
many Doritos as

you want. You’re like, absolutely

Brandon Handley 34:35
good exchange.

Jeremy Snowden 34:36
So, you know, in my mind’s eye, I was like, I mean, I changed my will before I went in you know, I mean, it was I was thinking this I prepared with intentions, etc. about it. I meditated and prayed on it, and then I, you know, I went in, put your money down. That’s where it’s at, right everywhere. So I’m in of course, I won’t go into the experience right now, but The thing is, is that things that I seen made sense to me. Yeah. It makes sense to me in a way that maybe the things that I’ve read didn’t make sense to me. Sure. I didn’t change my religion, or if you will, so much as it it really helped me to open my spirit, if you will. Everybody should do it, because it was a trip and a half and it was a heavy deal,

Brandon Handley 35:24
you know, about no doubt. Well, but I mean, look, I it’s kind of like, um, it’s kind of like the the walls are already weakened. And that just, you know, that just

Unknown Speaker 35:37
positive in a damn

Jeremy Snowden 35:39
right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, it didn’t make me better. It didn’t make me a better father or husband or getting married or anything. It just changed you. Exactly. I mean, let’s just, even if you look at it from a purely scientific standpoint, you know, where it was the who’s hallucinogenic. It’s, you know, It was legal the way that I obtained it the whole nine yards. So I’m pretty certain that but it’s, you know, I’m just

Brandon Handley 36:06
waiting for the address at the end of the show.

Jeremy Snowden 36:14
Well, but the thing that if you just look at it from a scientific point of view, where it’s just a hallucinogenic that, you know, responded to your nervous system, creating a sense of euphoria and blah, blah, blah, colors, right, good shit. It was right. Nonetheless, it wasn’t really about the experience, right? Because it really is about the outcome. Really, right. Yeah. I, this experience is a great, everybody’s got it. Right. You know,

Brandon Handley 36:44
you take it, I mean, look at me, it’s, it’s, it’s, you know, everybody’s got experiences, right? It’s, it’s not that you don’t have the experiences How do you translate those experiences? And that’s, that’s really the outcome, like so it’s it’s every, you know, You know, my wife has never done any hardcore drugs, or drugs. I don’t think she’s ever smoked a weed or maybe she took a hit, but like, she never was like, hey, let’s sit around all afternoon and like smoke his bowl, like, Oh my God just filled the bottled water, right? Like she never hung out did all that, but like, um, you know, she’ll have some drinks and whatever. But so she’s had experiences that she’s had. And I’ve had, you know, plenty of experiences similar to one I just outlined and much rougher and tougher. And she looks at my life like, wow, you went through some shit. I’m like, it’s not. Everybody’s gone through some shit. It’s somebody translate that how do you? How do you take your stories, and empower yourself? Because what we’ve done though, historically, and I think this is part of what you’re teaching your men and working with your men is take these stories and your experiences, and empower yourself. And that’s kind of the pinnacle of the hero’s journey is that my writers? Tell me more. I’m talking way too much. Yes,

Jeremy Snowden 37:56
this is the collaborate. I think it’s great but the return That’s the final third of the hero’s journey the return when, you know King off, Arthur is able to pull the sword from the stone where Simba grabs the courage to be able to, you know, go and get his bride and defeat his uncle and circle and lie, you know. So. So it’s it’s again, it’s it’s, it’s the, it’s the return and for me, it’s like well, we started at the, you know the departure like with some some of my guys, we started the departure, and I don’t determine that for you. Like, I’m very careful not to try to dictate what I see God as for someone else. Yeah, you can’t. Right. Right, right. Yeah. That’s right.

Brandon Handley 38:42
So that’s what that’s what it is frustrating. Um, and that’s the product it’s frustrating but it’s also the problem because you Yeah, it’s uh, if you say you know, God, then you don’t know God type thing, right? Like because

Unknown Speaker 38:58
you can’t, you can’t

Brandon Handley 39:00
Put that into words. If you’ve gotten that kind of the first place that this kind of dawned on me experiences can’t be translated they must be experienced was a de five rings book. If you’ve ever read that, right? Have you ever read that? That Samurai? Oh, yeah. And I was just beginning Jiu Jitsu at the same time, but like he would be talking about like, you know, kind of these different sword moves and swords, spots and spaces. And he can tell you how to do the moves, you can watch how to do the moves, but it’s not until not only do you go try to do the moves, when you nail the move, and you get it right, then you know, you’ve just executed it correctly, right? You’re like, wow, you know, because it’ll be just a muscle here or muscle here and change and adjustment angle here or there. That makes it all work, right. So minor, minor adjustments, but when you nail it, you’ve experienced it. And that’s all you can tell somebody like you’ll know when you get it. Right, you’ll know when you write like algebra and fractions.

Jeremy Snowden 40:05
Yeah. Oh, and you’re like, bingo. Yeah, I got you best nine years of my life.

Brandon Handley 40:16
So, so you’re running this group, you’ve been running this group for a while now. Right? And and you’re, you’re ramping up. You want to expand my right or wrong. For sure. Yeah. Let’s talk about that. Tell me what’s up. Yeah.

Jeremy Snowden 40:31
So because of my experience of divorce seven years, and just when I was able to kind of release that yoke of what my reality was, or when I created as far as my story, and then realize I used to be, I used to be a husband and a father, then it’d become, you know, an ex husband. I changed roles right. And then the kids stopped calling me because they were certainly going off to high you know, High School in college. So they respect Less than less. And it’s like so now I’m not even a dad. And so it you know, although I was technically Of course, you know, when they needed something specially, but and and it’s just part of their journey they’re they’re doing what they need to do as well. But it really caused me to be up to to look inside to make it happen. And so that’s sort of what I’m approaching other guys that are just having those questions right now. You know so

Brandon Handley 41:26
the question is, what is what are some of the trigger questions you hear and you’re like, you’re like, you’re like I know it. I know you need me. Right, I can help you. What are those questions?

Jeremy Snowden 41:35
Well, the key the key word that I listened for should back in my Bible days, Hey, have you been reading your Bible? Not as much as I should? Sure. Yeah. Are you exercising not as much as I should? It’s like, why don’t you design a life for yourself when you fully embody yourself? And so you know, whenever I hear those kind of things like should how things are supposed to To be or ought to, if they’re open if people are open to it, and again, it’s a matter of audience, right? I don’t know who, who needs me. I’m, I’m just opening myself to do. I’m doing a 21 day kind of a challenge. It’s really not about the 21 days. It’s not about doing activities, although it is it’s just about someone watching you through your journey as you’re developing. So those dark days where you don’t want to get up and you get a text from me that says, you’re making your bed right and you’re doing your five push ups. Put a thumbs up when that’s done, holler to you later. Peace, right? It’ll put a smile on your face. It’ll make you it’ll make you do it even though you don’t want to do it. It’s valid. Right? It’s just it’s it’s billion dollar that they already have. Sure.

Brandon Handley 42:44
Yeah. That hasn’t been on hasn’t been hasn’t been bolstered. Right. It hasn’t been supported. It hasn’t been encouraged,

Jeremy Snowden 42:52
right? Um

Brandon Handley 42:55
I would you know, I would stop were we talking about it. I’m Sure you

Unknown Speaker 43:00
flow, the book flow, you bought a book

Brandon Handley 43:03
is it in his book where he talks about and I think it is in his book where he talks about like, you know, some of the older cultures like in China and Oriental cultures, they cultivated the sense of being, right. They cultivated, they were cultivated people. And we get the sense of and you know, when we say, oh, that person’s cultivated, we this we think aristocratic, we think money, wealth, and all these other things, but know, what he’s talking about is they’ve cultivated that inner sense of being right. They’ve cultivated that, you know, stoicism and applied it and it’s internalized, right. That’s, that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s what they’ve done. And that’s what we haven’t done. Right. So that in a Western culture, right, you know, and, and, and I’ll throw this other one at you too, because I keep kicking it around. You know, adulting is hard, but you know what, the full word is adulterated. We’ve been adulterated and changed, right? There’s this change and transition. So adulting being adulterated. When we go through this metamorphosis. It’s a it is a challenge. And if you don’t have people like yourself, myself, I’m there to catch you as you come in or greet you, right? I mean, the officer into the church is there to greet you to welcome you like that. Right? It’s You’re welcome here, come into this place where you’re welcome. And and and be prepared to hear some stories that if you’re, they’re no longer pearls before swine, right, that they’re no longer pearls before swine, like, these are all the stories that are now before you that after you cross this threshold of understanding, you get now you’re like, Ah, yeah, because you can’t you I think we’re talking a little bit about this earlier. It’s like you can’t go to people who haven’t already had the experience. Tell them about the experience, and have them ready to accept it because It sounds unreal.

Unknown Speaker 45:02
That’s right. Right. But the beauty is

Brandon Handley 45:08
we’ve got, you know, Vedanta Hinduism, all the stories from you know, the the writing to your pata shots. But I mean even, you know, the the cuneiform Egypt lives this, these are not and this is this is what you’re talking about though these are not new feelings. These are not new questions. These questions have all been answered before. Yeah. But they’ve been answered by generations before us who had other experiences to reference around them. Right. And we’ve got to do that now. We’ve got to retranslate those stories into a language that somebody else can understand.

Jeremy Snowden 45:46
And more or less one that resonates with our just tacking on for me, it’s like, yeah, yeah, right. It’s not something that I’m parroting anymore and not that you’re living it.

Brandon Handley 45:56
You’re living, you’re living it, you’ve embodied it. It is now internalized and when you express yourself, self expression, your inner self. Right? That’s what’s coming out. It’s like the Wayne Dyer thing, right? You know, if you put nothing if you’re an orange, essentially right, the only thing it’s going to come out of you is orange juice because all you’ve been putting in you is pouring right? I mean for you, all you’ve been putting into yourself is like this love, right? I’ve been putting into yourself Is this just the story and your understanding and you’ve been working on yourself? You’ve been cultivating yourself so that you can

Unknown Speaker 46:31
share so that you can get Yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Snowden 46:34
You know, I find that a lot of guys and again, I work in more in the manned space than I you know, I’ve got of course you know, lots of Lady for fret friends that are women but I pretty much in the man’s face in terms of self development. Um, and maybe that’s just more I’m just that’s how I’m wired. You know, I there’s a lot of common, there’s more commonality, so for sure, but you find that a lot of guys have been motivated and burdened by shame. Okay, it’s, it was the, it was the tool that drew the you know that trival drove him to school, it was the tool that kept him in line. It’s the and then all of a sudden, you know, and that’s where I’m thinking, Man, if people are feeling sensing that on the regular, something’s not right, your, your, your, your heart is as a as a and this is just my experience, if your heart is just pushes that way, it’s like it feels it and it pushes it away. And so sometimes people use excessive alcohol or drugs or whatever, you know, to, or eating or whatever to be able to mask that. But that’s just, that’s just the symptoms, you’re just cutting leaves off the, you know, the, the weed or whatever, you know, but it’s going to continue to grow. It’s just going to be there until you find a way to be able to not even address it, but address yourself. It’s okay. You know, it’s alright, man, everybody makes mistake, I really do it in my there. And just going through that process of not, you know, that self talk process to bring really an impact besides the story, the stories and outside thing, which some of it was true, some of it happened, a lot of it didn’t. And you replayed it, you know, 90,000 times every day over the last 20 years or whatever. So I think that’s why people need to have other people it’s not just by my coaching, you know, video, you know, whatever’s and you will be a millionaire too. It’s, hey, so was it hard brushing your teeth this morning, man. You know, you look tired, like doing a video. You know, like how when you do video with people.

Brandon Handley 48:49
So, you know when I chatted with a doctor who was helping men Go through depression, right? She was actually working on, you know, men who are suicidal, right? Trying to get them help, right because her brother had had done this himself. And so she made that kind of her life’s work

Unknown Speaker 49:15
column

Unknown Speaker 49:22
for three, to one more back.

Brandon Handley 49:27
What are some, like, you know, applications of kind of what we’re talking about there, right? Because it sounds to me a little bit like, you know, using the observer as a tool, right? That’s what it was right? So she would she would say, hey, with men, right? They want to try it first. They want to try to do it on their own first and so she would offer them a toolbox. Do you offer your guys like a toolbox? Beautiful.

Jeremy Snowden 49:49
I think that the the book study in itself is that toolbox like resource, and it’s really not me. It’s the other guys I mean, we get on a zoom call. We talked about You know, like, right now we’re doing Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. Right? Great ground, the great book, right? Yeah, nothing wrong with that. And we’re just going through it and what we’re doing, we’re talking the language to each other. So I use that as a toolbox. I mean, plain simple is people guys always say it’s so hard to be able to be a part of a men’s group. Well, the men’s group is, you know, your bowling league, if it’s the right guys, you know, or, you know, the people that you you know, whatever, you know, hike with or cycle with, that can be a part of your men’s group. So it doesn’t have to be an officially sanctioned thing. So that’s my that would be my tool, my toolbox and you know, then I work on work with people one on one, you know, we do the, the hero’s journey men’s circle, just that’s, that’s what I do. That’s what I do for my life, not for a living. So I’m charging for I probably never will. It’s just a way to be able to have these conversations because if you think about it, in Spanish, everybody’s taking Spanish, one Spanish To write, and none of us can even order from the taco truck. You know, I’m saying, why is that? Well, because we didn’t get a chance to practice it. Right? So when you’re reading a book, a really good book, and then you’re talking to somebody about it, like what you and I just did, you know, in the hero’s journey, you broke it down. I was like, amen. Amen. I was like, Wow, dude. So, you know, and then she’s talking about it. What does it do? It solidifies my ideas. It helps you to contrast them against yours. Sure, not for the not for the cause of debate. You’re a stranger you’re hearing you know, Australia or whatever. I know you’re not but you know, I’m saying

Brandon Handley 51:35
but actually, I heard there’s a lot of spiders there the other day and we don’t want to be in Australia. So

Unknown Speaker 51:40
Crikey there goes that cranky.

Brandon Handley 51:42
But I was like, they all said it with kangaroos and platypus and koalas.

Unknown Speaker 51:47
100%

Brandon Handley 51:50
The it’s also funny too. Are you able to do me a favor man. Take your camera and swirl it around and rattle off some of the books that

Unknown Speaker 52:01
Like well now, right? Yeah.

Jeremy Snowden 52:05
Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. The Millionaire Next Door right I know that you got that. First things first time traps Elements of Style as far as writing I think you and I think

Brandon Handley 52:16
that’s where we like that’s where we that’s where we hit off right like we really don’t know. Yeah.

Jeremy Snowden 52:23
One minute to do list Heidegger Martin Heidegger, you know, basic writings pemuteran john, which is great, right? I never saw you’re not so smart. It’s more just a analytical book. You got some Seth Godin represent, right? Yeah, check this

Unknown Speaker 52:38
out says one way book man. For sure. Right.

Jeremy Snowden 52:42
Right. So of course Four Agreements represent right. The Alchemist over there while the heart by

john Eldridge.

Hmm. You know, so, uh, I hate to say I’m well read, but I’m just not.

Unknown Speaker 52:57
So. I think

Brandon Handley 52:58
I think the other thing you hit on there too. is, you know, it’s not just reading these books, discussing them and applying them. So otherwise it’s a it’s what they call shelf esteem. Whoo. Right. Right. You know, what good is it doing it? Yeah. Great. You read all the books. What out of that particular book did you love right? Or you know, if you want to, you know, we’ll talk about I talked about high fidelity and the crown a lot, you know, not the chronological order but how you got from how I got from like, you know, blondie, you know, Tomic in 1981 to shatter herbs and Rolling Stones like got into like a you know, man who’s right out to that like a talking heads you know, it’s always the same, it’s the same right like I could tell you a chronological order how I made these brownies and and and the songs and how they made me move. right and and and and what I took out at that time, what was my heart feeling? Same thing with the book. So right like, What? What inside of that book made? What was the? What about that book made you move? What about that book made you change? What changes did you make? Because you’ve read that?

Unknown Speaker 54:18
Yeah. Right. So, um

Brandon Handley 54:23
what are some like great applications that you would give some people from any one of those books include

Unknown Speaker 54:32
include include call heroes, you know, hero’s journey. Wow.

Jeremy Snowden 54:37
Um, well, again, I think that the the hero’s journey is a template for your entire life and it can happen so quickly right in different areas and aspects of your life. So it’s not just a one time winner takes all you know, it’s it’s you got to go through this story again, it’s just a different story. Like, like my kids, they went vegan, right. And I was thinking in my mind Amway is next.

Unknown Speaker 55:05
This only leads to one place.

Jeremy Snowden 55:08
Now, you know, no, not necessarily, but it’s just that we all go through face to face. Yeah. All right. Have you been born again yet? You know, are you

Unknown Speaker 55:16
sure? We go through the? Yep, yep. Yeah.

Jeremy Snowden 55:20
So, um, I think that probably love, of course, the Four Agreements primarily for its, if you will, the, the number, the preface, but the beginning where he talks about how society created things about us, like your name, it’s not your name. It’s what you’re called, you know, it’s not you, you know, or your language was chosen for you because of where you were born. You know, those kind of, so when you when you when you understand that part, then you understand Wait a second, then, I mean, things get really weird. You’re like, what do I do with my hands, you know, kind of thing. It’s, and so I really like that seven hands. Habits of Highly Effective People. Oh my gosh, in terms of, you know, if you’re dealing with anger, for instance, you know, then, I mean, understanding Victor Frankel’s stuff, Jewish, Austrian psych psychiatrist and lecture now he’s on a table exercising his last Enduring Freedom, you know, the power to choose his response. He couldn’t control the stimulus what was happening to him at the time,

Unknown Speaker 56:24
right.

Jeremy Snowden 56:26
And, you know, his response you could control because of the space in between, which is his power to choose.

Brandon Handley 56:33
Yeah, that’s based in between is is it that’s, that’s something that me once you recognize that space in between, so there’s so much power and absolute there’s so much power in that. And you know, not for nothin like I was always like, felt like, you know, the fastest way to answer had to be like the smartest one right now. You’re the fastest One answer, but the more I think about it, like, the person who goes away and comes back with an answer, like the next day and really thought about it, that’s the person I admire, you know the person with a question. Okay, well, yeah, I’ll talk to you tomorrow.

Jeremy Snowden 57:16
Yeah. Nice.

Brandon Handley 57:18
Right and and then and then we usually within that time, you kind of figure out some answers for yourself. And to me anyways, whenever you ask a question, you’re like, Look, not for nothing. You’ve got it. You’ve got a pre loaded answer already. You know what I mean? You’re like, even in even for yourself, right? Like, you know, the whole idea of what you seek is seeking you, right? It’s just like, you’re just, you know, you’re sending out to the university. Like, this is what I’m looking for. It’ll the universe is like, Alright, well, here it is. You’re like, Ah, yeah. where, you know, you know, you know not I don’t know where you you, you only had eyes for that.

Jeremy Snowden 57:54
Right? Right. How about this, just throw a little bit of spice in Coggins did that. How many of us are self sabotaging at the 10th and goal all day,

Brandon Handley 58:07
every day?

Jeremy Snowden 58:08
Because we, I mean, we can see it through the membrane. And we’re afraid what that means.

Brandon Handley 58:14
There’s a really good book on that. Let me see if I’ve got it here. Notice there is I can do anything. I do anything, only if I knew what it was how to discover how to discover what you really want and how to get it. And this is, the concept is about scanners. Right? And scanners are like, you know, I forget what it is, but like, you know, some of us we’ve got this story, that we’re not going to go do this thing, because we feel like why can’t go do this because if I did that, I’d leave my family behind. Right or or like, you know, something would happen, my family, they would get upset with me and so we tell ourselves, all these stories They’re just that write stories. And so we stop ourselves at the 10 yard line. Because internally, we’ve got, like some story that we told ourselves that we heard, you know, 30 years ago.

Unknown Speaker 59:11
That’s so digged. In it’s it’s entrenched. Yeah. Right.

Brandon Handley 59:16
And and whether or not we like to admit it, we know that that’s still in there, right? We’re like, we’re like, now I got rid of that. Like, yo, bro, you don’t get rid of words. Right? They keep coming. They keep coming back. And that’s just like those stories that we keep telling ourselves and then we say, yeah, we think we got it fixed. And we am still there.

Jeremy Snowden 59:35
Right? Yeah. Incredible. Yeah.

Brandon Handley 59:38
Yeah, I mean,

Jeremy Snowden 59:39
that’s a that’s sorry. That’s like, a choice, right?

Brandon Handley 59:44
Yeah, that’s a space right. That’s a space in between, right. That’s a space that’s a that’s the that’s the opportunity to recognize the story that you’ve told yourself over and over and over and over again, and and that’s your opportunity to say Not today.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:01
Right? Yeah.

Brandon Handley 1:00:03
I talked way too much on this one, Jeremy, thanks for letting me talk. I mean, I can see why, you know, you’re you’re the guy that that, you know, thanks for this is how you hold space. I appreciate it. You know where, you know, you’ve got this coming up, where can people go join this group with you?

Jeremy Snowden 1:00:18
Absolutely. Thanks. And first off, I wanted to say, you know, I mean, like, you’re rocking it to, like, as far as like living your ultimate path. I can, I really can see from my side of the screen. Here’s somebody that’s going after it, you know, I’m saying you still have obligations, you still have things you have to do. And so this is extra right

Brandon Handley 1:00:40
side, hustle, whatever. It’s not. here’s, here’s, here’s the thing, and I appreciate that, right. It’s not the side hustle. This is I mean, you’ll listen to a lot of other people. If you make this the thing you have to do. There’s resistance in that and there’s worrying there’s concern and so you will think back, right you hold things back that are true. Do you because you’re concerned what other people may think. Right? And so if you just do it, because it’s true to you without expectation, I mean, we talk about Buddhism, right? And we talk about suffering is due to desires but suffering to me is due to our expectations suffering, his desires, our expectations, not being realized the way that we thought that they were going to come out right. So if we do this with the intention, if I do this with the intention that this has to work, all pressures on this all pressures on me that I lose my freedom with that, yeah, beautiful my freedom with that, so but I do appreciate the truth of the matter is this is true to me. 100% right now, getting to lead with spirituality instead of hiding behind your father for the rest of us was awesome. You know, doing that five group was great. They brought me To exactly where I am today it was necessary. I did you know I did prosperity practice and and dabbled in LA. But that also brought me here to ultimately spirituality. I’m like, you know what, I’m just gonna I’m just gonna leave with spirituality. Like we talked in the in this is like, that’s who I feel like I need to be I need to be the greeter I need to be the person that greets like you just like you right? Like, just like it is 100% you know, so we’re walking the same we’re walking a similar path, right? And and we’re just there to help people out man and the whole deal with this podcast is we’re out there doing it successfully and living our path and having a more fulfilled life through this version of ourselves.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:48
And there are plenty of people doing it. And my total intent is to show you that you can do it too.

Brandon Handley 1:02:58
I love that right. There’s some There’s something else. There’s something in Jeremy’s story that you’re going to hear today that resonates with you that says, I gotta, I gotta follow my path. I gotta, I gotta I gotta open up my own heart. I feel like I feel like I could you know, benefit from hanging out with Jeremy and learning about, um, you know, the hero’s journey, I’ve never heard about it. So go ahead, spend some time there. Understand it’s like to give people space and follow your path, man.

Jeremy Snowden 1:03:25
Absolutely. So we have a

Facebook group, of course, hero’s journey, which immense discussion discussion circle, which means you know, you’re in, you’re in if you want in your in piping, just we follow a DBA D Don’t be a, you know, whatever. Don’t Don’t just don’t troll in there just for the sake of trolling. Yeah, but it’s a great place to be able to connect, you know, it’s a safe spot. Some people what I’ve noticed, too, is there more. They’re more reserved, you know, they they they want to watch for While and that’s fine. And but it’s a great place to connect. And of course, you can message me, of course, Jeremy Snowden, feel free to add me if you’re a guy that’s into growth mindset, if you’re trying to find your way or if you just need some pointers or some feedback, always willing to schedule a call with you.

Brandon Handley 1:04:17
Yeah, I think that’s awesome that you’re holding that space for these people. And, you know, you’re accepting them and you’re helping them. You’re helping them find themselves man. And that’s super important. So thank you for joining. So that’s Jeremy Sloane on Facebook. And I know you’re on Instagram to where should they find you on Instagram?

Jeremy Snowden 1:04:39
Instagram is bald headed Movado. It’s a project that’s a tongue in cheek, I’m biracial. And so I kind of take potshots at you know, the the notion that you know, what are you supposed to be then? So it’s more of a tongue in cheek thanks, but I enjoy it. I love I love I’d love to connect there to all thank

Unknown Speaker 1:04:59
you Thank you so much for joining us today. Cool. Thanks, brother.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai